Any Big Splashes Left in the Offseason?
Posted: August 25, 2005 @ 12:05 pm
By this time a week from now the Cowboys will have a firm idea of their roster. They may be tinkering with the last two or so spots but the real important decisions will be set. The late roster cuts will have an effect on the team, as the Parcells Cowboys have made a few late pickups to bolster weak spots and special teams. The bigger question is whether they might make a bolder move like, say, a trade to fill in an area of need? And if they did, who would be out there?
FS — This is still an area of need, even with the Rich Coady signing. When I was in Oxnard, I happened to stand near one of the many volunteers who work the camp. These guys get close to the players and their families and love to tell stories to show off the fact that they get close to the players and their families. The volunteer on this day had a story on Lynn Scott, who was practicing just a few feet away with the secondary. He said that Scott’s wife had relayed that he was very unsure of making the team, where he had shown more confidence in the past.
The Coady signing shows that Scott was right. His presence endangers Scott more than anybody else. However, I’m not sure that Coady has any right to feel secure. Izell Reese was a longtime NFL vet and where is he today? Looking for work. Coady will have to produce on special teams to win a spot. And because he was signed for such a small salary, I would not be at all surprised to see Coady and Scott get the boot if a better veteran option became available next week.
RT– The Cowboys may have contacted Scott Gragg’s agent and Ross Verba may be out there, but there are no new rumors to replace these. The Cowboys may still be considering one of these veterans, but if they were desperate to fill the RT position, would they not have signed one of them in the last two days? They are veterans, but they need some time to prepare for the season and learn your blocking schemes. With Marco Rivera returning to practice yesterday, Petitti gets an even longer lease on right tackle.
WR — The discussion this week has centered on Quincy Morgan versus Patrick Crayton, but I think it’s misguided, since they are now playing different positions. Crayton has won the spot as the third WR and as Terry Glenn’s backup. Morgan, thought known as a speedster, is backing up Keyshawn. Behind Morgan is a lot of question marks. I would not be surprised to see the Cowboys pick up a late veteran cut here if he could handle Johnson’s role.
OLB — This was Bill Parcells concern going into the Seahawks game and the ability of the first team Seattle offense to riddle the linebacking corps with passes to tight ends and receivers running crossing routes over the middle has to concern him. If there was a spot that might see a surprise move, through waiver claim or trade, this might be it. Hey, I understand John Abraham still hasn’t reported to Jets’ camp! (Sound of me staggering out of my opium den heard in the background.) Yeah, it’s crazy, but I can dream, can’t I?
In all seriousness, Abraham in a Cowboys uniform is a pipe dream. The thought of new OLB with the team next week is not.
Comments
209 Responses to “Any Big Splashes Left in the Offseason?”
Totally off the subject, but Rayfield Wright may finally get into the HOF next year he was voted in as a finalist.
…. Could you imagine Abraham and Ware off the edge!! Wow!!
Why we won’t sign a veteran RT and why Petitti will be the starter this season:
As a diehard Boys fan, i can recognize that we are more than a solid veteran RT (if one even exists) away from the Superbowl. So here are my 6 reasons why we will stick with Petitti:
-Dominant Tackle in college (albeit on the other side)
-Has something to prove (slipped in the draft because of his weight problem, now has it under control and wants to show everyone that they made a mistake by passing on him)
-Playing next to excellent veteran blockers in Rivera and Dan Cambell (hopefully J-Wit will be at that level someday as well)
-Coach is pulling for him to succeed (never a bad thing)
-Has the size, strength, and physical ability (of course, so did Tucker, but that’s a different issue)
-And finally, he doesn’t have to play amazingly well to be considered an improvement over last year, or to be considered less of a dissappointment than Rogers was.
And there you go, that is why we won’t be signing Gragg or Verba or any other vet to be a starter. We might sign a vet to be a backup over Tucker, but that would be it for the Tackle position.
I think they are going to still go after a veteran tackle. That is a glaring weakness that could affect Bledsoe and the offense. Petitti will not be in form to start until geam 9 or 10 and I don’t think Tucker can handle the job.
FS - Veteran would be good, but I think Davis has won the job.
OLB- Upgrade would be nice, bu the success of the defense will be experience and how quickly we can gel.
FS - I think the Cowboys are going to have a veteran guy at least as a backup (but a ST player). I don’t see them going in to the season with Davis starting and no one to play behind him.
RT - I see Dallas looking at the waiver wire or one of the mentioned out of work guys. You can’t have Drew Bledsoe as your QB and then take a risk at RT. It doesn’t make sense with their philosophy. They could have gotten away with it with someone like Q-Car (not suggesting to bring him back, just saying he was mobile enough to compensate for a problem)
WR - I think if Morgan had the talent he wouldn’t be backing up Johnson, he’d be the 3rd guy and playing. The fact they’re playing two different positions is probably because Morgan is playing out of position because of lack of talent. My guess is they want Crayton to win that 3rd spot anyway and Morgan’s making it easy on them. And as Bill says, you can’t just be better than the other players on the team, you have to be better than everyone that’s unsigned. Bill also said, “Morgan should be worried”. if that’s not a shot then I don’t know what is. Morgan doesn’t make it to San Diego I say.
Abraham and Ware? WOW………yeah the opium must have been good. Sure wish it was more than a pipe dream. Imagine the number of Sacks our Defense would record with those two. So you think BP might just go get himself another OLB huh. Probably needs to make this thing work the way he would like. Is Thornton hobbled or is he getting better? Can he play the OLB any better opposite Ware? Honestly I think Bradie James is our weak spot. Move Burnett inside and get another 250+ guy with some good speed for the other OLB.
Hey we gave the Jets Quincy Carter………maybe they can just ship Abraham to us. Q was such a big contributor to their team last year. LOL.
Personally I am against paying money to Gragg or Verba. I think we got some good guards and LA can play RT if needed. Continue to give Petitti time on the field and learning the right side and his footwork and I think that kid can play too.
Rogers looks like the worst pick of the Parcells era. Cut and only contributed in two games over two years. Word is he was often injured in his collegiate career did our scouts miss that? Funny thing is somebody else is going to give him a chance next year and if he is healthy he would have been our starter at RT. It sounds like the team was more upset over his second shoulder surgery and his decision to go ahead under the knife again with the knee.
a little off the topic but i just read that Ferguson might not be ready for the opener. I kno we have Glover in there playing and hes an all-pro, but fergie was brought here to anchor that 3-man front…
I don’t think Abraham is even possible, nor would the Cowboys want him. First of all, he’s a DE not an OLB. He wants too much money and his attitude stinks. He doesn’t show up for big games and that is too much of a liability. We have a good perhaps great front 7. Let’s stick with the people we got. They seem to have a good attitude and are willing to give everything they have to make this team win.
I would like to see someone come in at right tackle, just in case Pettiti struggles. Let’s get rid of Tucker, he’s a liability. Let’s pick up Gragg. The last thing this team needs is for Bledsoe to go down because the RT position didn’t do its job and has to rely on either Romo or Henson. If that happens then Bill and Jerry are going to kick themselves like last year for taking a chance that the young talent will suffice.
This team has a chance to be good. I’d like to see them solidify the RT weakness and then take this team into the regular season.
Speaking of sacks, we could lead the league. Those blitzes looked to open all types of lanes and created a host of problems for Seatle’s ofensive line, which is a pretty good unit. … With Ware walking up to the edge, and in essence having 5 linemen at the line of scrimmage caused problems too. … Ware/Abraham sounds great, but so does Ware/Ellis.
I read Quincy Morgan’s response after the Seatle game. It sounds to me more like an innocent plead for playing time during the preseason so he can showcase his skills. Nothing wrong with a guy anxious to play! I hope he takes advantage of his time too. … The only delema here is that the time the 3rd WR gets to play compared with the 4th WR is a significant difference, especially with this team. Morgan wants to play, and I can’t blame him for that.
Kevin-I like your thought on dumping Tucker and getting Gragg. The difference in salary cap hit would be minimal and I’m a lot more comfortable having an exp backup at RT in case Pettiti doesn’t develop fast enough or stumbles along the way.
John Abraham is not happy with the franchise tag just like NO veteran is.
He wants a long term deal and some guarnteed signing bonus like every other big time player.
The guy would be an OLB. Look at his size and weight.
Now I don’t think we got the cap space and I don’t see us trading anybody we got for him. So personally I don’t see it happening.
However, the guy would be a great addition to this team he is also a Parcells draft pick.
It has been reported that Lance Frazier was pulled from practice this morning in anticipation of a possible trade, but no team or details for whom.
While I agree with some that there will be growing pains with Petitti, HE IS OUR GUY! Although I am now coming around to the realization that we WILL need to sign a vet to at least back him up. Tucker will not cut it in any fashion!
At S we have our backup to Davis and Roy (hey Roy, get off your ass and play right, enough showboating). His name is Beriault. Granted we need some insurance because of Beriault’s knee. Either Scott or Coady would be fine. ( I prefer Scott because he is already a Cowboy)
Piss on Abraham. He is too small for the 3-4, has a bum knee, and won’t show up for big games. (Remember last years playoffs? “ooohhh, I better not play. the field is poopy and I have to protect my knee for free-agency) Keep his prima donna ass as far away from us as possible!
As for Rayfield Wright: IT IS ABOUT FLOCKING TIME HE HAS A LEGITIMATE CHANCE TO RECIEVE THE RECOGNITION HE DESERVES!!!!!!!!!!
Abraham went into the tank before the playoffs last year- NO WAY does BP want him. Pettiti is raw but talented. I think BP will watch real carefull the next game and decide on whether to get some one extra.
I think we will be fine on the right side with getting a solid back up at RT with some experience. The area that conserns me most is the FS spot. Just pick up brock marion and give him a shot. atleast he provides depth.
Brock marion is done………….
Derrick,
I didn’t get the impression from Parcells’ press conference that they were trying to trade Frazier. I think they are trying to work out an injury settlement with him.
I’m a bit tired of the effort made at the dallas website. They have an entire staff of columnists along with direct contact with the team. Yet, I have to stare at the same article for 2 days. How about some news? They should make a better effort to whet the appetites of obsessive folks like myself. This site is the only thing that keeps my football shakes at bay.
Mr Bill,
From what I know, he was pulled from practice so that makes me think that their is a trade involved. Bill at his press conference didn’t make mention of frazier being cut and given an injury settlement, which he would of done if Frazier was cut, so that makes me think a trade is in the works with another team.
Josh,
Have you noticed that they now want you to register to read the columnists at dc.com? I’m telling you, I watched this happen 2 years ago at DMN. They now give us cowboysplus.com for a fee. Like you said with all the laziness their writers show, not to mention publishing nothing more than regurgitated BP press conferences, I’ll be damned if I will pay to go to that site. The mark of a true writer is when you are made to feel like you are actually there. The only guy I have seen covering the Cowboys in years that makes you feel that way is Rafael!
I am becoming more and more concerned about Ferguson. Beriault’s knee is also getting worse it seems. What a blow losing both of them would be.
James,
I’m with you on Ferguson. He’s the key to the 3-4 defense and if he’s not gonna be able to go at the start of the season, the 3-4 might be changed back to the 4-3. This is exactly why I have always said that next year, we have to draft another nose tackle, either wright or Ngatu, if available, this is becoming a big need, since the nose tackle is a key position in the 3-4
There’s a comment on DMN.com that says Bill mentioned they’re in discussions with several teams on Frazier. Looks like he’ll be gone soon. My guess is he’ll be cut soon if they can’t find a partner in the dance.
Regarding the Dallas Cowboys website- It is lame in so many ways but take a stroll to the other official NFL websites. Most don’t have columnists and don’t do anything to flesh out team news, injuries etc. They are just pushing tickets and providing minimum info. They make the Dallas website look well done.
I think what leads to the success of this website is the terrificly insightful lead posts by Rafael and the interest and thoughtful discussion of topics important to the fans. Respectful disagreements are welcome and interesting to read. It is also constantly changing and updating.
I, for one, hope the open post for the games will continue and that a few bad characters haven’t ruined that.
Don S.
Why is it soooo hard for you guys to believe just maybe Crayton is better then Morgan? Its not a knock on Morgan more of how much better Crayton has become over past year. Best hands on a team means something. And again Glenn will miss time this year so who ever is the 4th WR will get to play. BP want Crayton to go in for Glenn from time to time so the #4 will get in.
ALDS
Our biggest hole is going to be QB (the whole group) and the middle of the field on D( which has been a hole there for many many years now) RT and FS will be up and down. Davis is still an upgrade over last year.
I am not defending these guys, but they have to protect what they know to a degree. The writers at dallascowboys.com are obligated to keep secret some things they might know. They do alright there, and it serves us well, otherwise we all wouldn’t be visiting the site. Mickey Spags and Eatman also have much closer relationships to all the coaches and players, and sometimes being true about items that are close to you is hard. Spagnola and dc.com’s beat reporters were very critical of Parcells when he first arrived in Big D, as their writing also suggested that Dave Campo could do the job. Now it seems that there is much respect and admiration for Parcells, as they have got to understand that there is a method to his madness. This site gives us fans a voice and I applaud that, but some bloggers here make it sound like this site will some how “take over” for dallascowboys.com. No need to differentiate fellas, we have both … enjoy it!
If we can find a buyer for Frazier, the question will be: What can we get for him?
James
Losing Beriault wouldnt be a big blow now Ferguson on the other hand would be sad for our D.
Frazier seems to be dealt already, awaiting news on it though.
James
not much.
Maybe I missed it, but what’s going on with Tyson Thompson? Why didn’t he play Monday night vs. Seattle? I sure would’ve liked to see how he performed and see if those flashes of brilliance were merely flashes or peeks of things to come.
Funny, I read EVERTHING that dc.com put out about BP when he first arrived. I noticed no condemnation of him, but plenty of condemnation for Campo. (Partially deserved. The rest of the fault for the Campo years lies with Jerry J and Lacewell!) In fact I would say that dc.com and its writers went out of their way to welcome and play up BP and are still doing so. We must all remember, the journalistic staff at dc.com are the OFFICIAL, i.e. paid publicists for Jerry J’s Cowboys on the internet. That should be fairly apparent to anyone who has gone to that site for a while. That being said, it is superior to other team sites and has won awards for the same.
Steve C.
He is going to play Saturday.
I think if they can get a guy in to be a decent backup at free and strong safety, they will scope Beriaults knee and see if its a minor fix to clean it up and see if they can get him back on the field by week 2 or 3 of the regular season. He is definitely making this team.
I hope so Derrick.
I haven’t seen someone with his spunk and heart for awhile.
Would anyone trade Ellis for Abraham?
I agree…Beriaults stays…….
Big Jim,
R U nuts?
Big Jim-Tempted but I couldn’t do it. Ellis is a great team guy and a solid contributor. Abraham strikes me as a great player at times(when he wants to) and a not so great guy to have locker room wise.
Maybe so, but I’m sure BP can handle him.
I can’t beleive I’m about to say this, but we have some serious depth at DE.
Equivelant draft picks?
Pretty much the same cap hit (once you factor Abrams bounus spread out)?
Just a thought.
Big Jim-I am not real familiar with Abrahams injury history but is seems much more questionable than Ellis, who other than his leg flopping around that one time has been very reliable and steady.
Big Jim,
Parcells now has the defensive line size to do it. It would turn the defense into a strictly a 3-4 defense. Glover or Fergie, I say Ferguson the way Glover has been playing at NT, would probably play some DE to get their reps. … Jets play 4-3 and Ellis would fit in there just fine. Interesting thought.
Not to mention that even with the 4 man line, Parcells has been incorperating the 3-4 scheme, which kind of gives Ellis that “unnatural” edge position without a LB behind him. Something Abraham would be better suited to handle, because of his speed.
Big Jim,
Good thought, bad reality. Only if Ellis just can’t adjust to the 3-4 scheme and his role in it, would I trade him and ONLY for a 1st round draft choice, nothing less. Definitely not for Abraham straight up.
All of a sudden people might be interested in trading guys like Ellis? My how the wind has changed.
I would trade Ellis for Abraham in a heart beat. Problem is the Jets would never entertain such a thing.
You can’t get a 1st round draft pick for Shaun Alexander or Edgerin James, what makes you think Ellis could fetch such a price?
Cash,
Then we’ll keep him for now. Next year I would take less because our rooks will have a years experience and the 3-4 will be installed. Right now he is still too valuable to us to take less than that 1st rounder.. Of course, I ain’t Jerry J, so who knows what might happen.
Derrick,
You are probably right about Frazier. After re-listening to the press conference, this is what I heard:
Without that ‘mumble’, it seems straightforward. But, the way Parcells talks, that ‘mumble’ could have changed the entire meaning of the sentence.
At any rate, Mosley is reporting that after practice Parcells did say they were speaking with several teams about Frazier.
Steve C.
Basically, Thompson didn’t play because Parcells wanted to see much more of Thomas and (especially) Barber than he had seen against the Cardinals.
With Barber out with a foot infection, Thompson will see plenty of work Saturday, against the Texans.
James,
As soon as Campo was out the door, the DC.com writers began to rag on him. Simultaneously, the fawning over Bill Parcells began. I cannot recall one critical column about Parcells for that entire first year.
As for fault placing during the Campo years, don’t forget Bruce Coslet.
Mr. Bill,
The pause seemed to reflect that he was going to say “not trying to work out an injury”, but in fact work something out “with other teams”. When asked about who was winning the “battle” between Frazier, Jones, and Thorton for 4th CB, Parcells only commented on Thorton and Jones and how they were playing.
Big Jim,
I like Ellis’ play a lot, but for a talent like Abraham (just about a sack a game) I would do it in a heart beat. More so because the switch to the 3-4 defense and the bodies up on the D-line. If we were 4-3, I would probably have to pass, JA is just too small to go there all day. I think its a very good fit for both teams, especially because the Jets haven’t signed him and play the 4-3.
James
Nobody would give us a 1st round pick for Ellis. Ellis is not a pro bowler. He has been an ok player. If I was going to trade Ellis it would be for a WR from Oak, their 3rd or 4th wide out and a 3rd or 4th round pick.
From a pure talent standpoint, I would definitely trade Ellis for Abraham. Abraham is also 3 years younger and is a better fit for this defense. But, with Abraham, you get baggage. He wants truckloads of money, and he seems never to be on the field when important games are to be played.
I don’t think it makes much difference, though, because I doubt that the Jets would be interested.
On the Campo thing, I recall positively Spags calling him a defensive genius. Also saying something to the effect of a Campo coached team could have done just as well as this Parcells coached team (after opening day loss to Atlanta) and lost too. Remember too Spags didn’t support (like) the Quincy Carter starting QB thing, and was critical of Parcells being content with him through that first offseason.
Mr Bill,
You’re right. I forgot about that jerkoff and his 2,000 play playbook!
AW,
Oakland is playing the 3-4 also, they dont want Ellis, he wouldn’t fit their system. Right now if you were to trade Ellis, you’d be lucky to get a third round pick for him.He just turned thirty years old a week and a half ago. He’s a solid player but not a difference maker.
To get Abraham from the jets, it would cost you Ellis, a first round pick and probably a third rounder too. Abraham is a bigtime player, The jets aren’t going to give him away.
Derrick
I know he is not a difference maker, that’s why I would trade him for a young WR not saying Oak would take him.
Derrick,
Abraham isn’t budging here. He wants a long term deal or a deal where the Jets can’t franchise him next year, just like Shaun Alexander’s deal. He may come at a cheaper price than you think, and Ellis fits their system better too. They already have Shaun Ellis, and adding his brother Greg would be a nice compliment. (I know they are not brothers .. I was just kidding) The Jets are considered Super Bowl contenders, and they have to realize how quickly that door can close, and they just can’t waist the opportunity. .. Like already mentioned too Ellis fits their scheme quite well. .. Its interesting to say the least.
I wouldn’t want a young third reciever unless its a guy that has alot of upside. I woud take a third rounder for Ellis right now, Draft picks is what you want, gives you room to wheel and deal on draft day, thats where Philly and the patriots thrive.
Derrick
Oak is deep their 3rd and 4th have big upside. They didn’t need Moss but he is the best in the game.
Oaklands 3rd and 4th reciever could very well be Randal Williams. Do we really want him back?
Derrick, a 3rd rounder for Ellis? Got to be kidding me. Ellis is a 1st rounder in the prime of his career, and will probably have his best season this year. Trading Ellis for Abraham is different than trading Ellis just to trade Ellis. He is probably staying right here in Dallas, but it is interesting to THINK of trading him to the Jets for Abraham. Their situation and ours .. just interesting.
did parcells draft abraham or was that after he left??? i wouldnt trade ellis for abraham, i wouldnt want a guy on my team that wouls rather sit a freakin playoff game then play so he didnt hurt himmself and his free agent market value. beriault is in hes tough and we all know parcells loves tough kids. ellis stays.
James
Oak top 4 are Moss JP, Curry and Gabriel. Curry and Gabriel could start for us now. Williams is the 5th at best and I doubt that.
AW
id rather have TO then moss, to plays hard hes a jerk off but hes better then moss (all around)
EricR
You are too high on Ellis he is not a great player, he is solid but he was picked to high in the first round to be just solid. Nobody would give us a 1st round maybe a low 2nd but I doubt that.
EricR,
Ellis, in his prime, at 30, come on, take off the rose colored glasses, He’s a solid, not great DE in a 4-3 scheme and you think he’s going to do better as an undersized end in the 3-4. By week 6, everyone is going to be ripping Ellis because he’s not getting pressure or sacks on the quarterback. If another team offered a third round pick, I would jump all over it. You’re not going to get a first or second for him, period.
mike
You are out of your mind TO has nothing on Moss, NOTHING. nobody is on Moss’s level. Moss is a game breaker, he should have gotten the MVP his rookie year for what he did. TO is good, he is the either the 2nd or 3rd best WR in the game. Moss last year would come into the game just to get a TD when he was hurt.
How about glover for john abraham???
AW
so i see you hate bledsoe and your on moss’s jock. why do you consider someone who takes plays off then a guy who will block. being a wr doesnt just mean you run and catch passes. you have to block fo your rb and other wr, both of which moss does sparringly at best. i hate to with a passion but IN MY OPINION to is better
mike
I don’t hate Bledsoe but he is not good anymore period. I will be pulling for him this year because I’m a cowboy fan. Let me tell you something about TO first the 49ers gave him away for a 2nd round pick. Moss is the highest paid WR TO is no where close plus Oak give up the 7th pick in the draft for Moss when they didn’t need a WR. Moss wins games just be being there. Minn didn’t want Moss anymore and everybody knew it and still got a high lst round pick and a good LB for him. Moss can get 10 TD half sleep
yah moss has won alot. last time i checked he has the same super bowl rings as owens. and i think owens was in a super bowl as well hmm.
since 98 moss has 9142yds 15.9 avg 90td’s 7 fumbles
since 98 owens 8616yds 14.6 avg 83tds 6 fumbles
wow your right hands down and owens played behind rice for a few years as well so your therory about hands down better is deffinetely wrong
Raf,
You might be on to something with Abraham.It is not all about
money i think he wants out of N.Y..I don’t think he likes playing
in Donnie H. 4-3 since he is not a prototype 4-3 end.He is much
more suit to a B.P. 3-4 and he was certainly more effective in it.
AW,mike,
I wouldn’t want either one of these two ‘CANCERS’ on my team. They are both ‘I’ guys, its all about them, not the team.
Boths players make great plays, but great players make their teams better, and neither MOSS or T.O make their teams better.
Micheal Irvin is a great player that makes his team better by his playing ability, leadership,his willingness to go accross the middle and take the hit to make the tough catch, his willingness to block on running plays downfield and his work ethic.He doesn’t complain about his teammates or coaches like Moss and T.O. All these traits make the team better.
T.O does alittle more than Moss when it comes to Micheal Irvins traits, but both are CANCERS, period.
Becker,
NO, its all about the money with Abraham.
thats the way most guys are. i wish we had another irvin on our team.
On the Monday Night game vs. Seattle, I saw something I haven’t seen since the late 90s on the Dallas sideline. The players looked like they are friends, they were laughing, having a good time, especially the guys on D. Maybe not this year, but this D is going to be big. If we can get a QB and some big young WRs this could be a team to be reckoned with.
The only person we have to blame for the years of futility pre Parcells is for Jerry Jones, thinking he was a football guy. For last year I blame Parcells because despite what Jerry Jones thinks we all think we know Parcells is calling the shots. And believe me I give Parcells kudos for his first season here, and I hope we have one this go around.
i wuld take harrison over either moss or TO any day of the week, Harrison never complained last year when he lsot yardage because Manning was spreading the ball around. Harrison is the top overall receiver
No reciever in the league, other than Moss, commands a double team every time they step on the field.
I wouldn’t trade Glover for Abraham, esp with Fergunson injured. But Ellis for Abraham I would do straight up if money wasnt involved. We can’t pay Abraham so I can’t really see us getting him. The Jets know how talented he is and won’t give him up for cheap. Plus the guy’s going to come to his senses when he realizes he’s on a good team capable of 10 wins. Ellis is good, but has never reached double digit sacks. Abraham has twice and is 3 years younger.
Derrick,
You are nuts to even consider a 3rd round draft choice for Ellis. That kind of statement makes me think you are very young and know nothing about football. Ellis had his BEST season last year, that kind of indicates he is in the “prime” of his career. His roll on this team will be that of “pass rush specialist”- Parcells has said as much, and Parcells expects his sack #s to go up this year as well. Parcells’ words, not mine, so go tell him about how Ellis isn’t going to do better as an “undersized DE”. … Maybe my glasses are red, but MY EYES ARE OPENED, maybe you should try that. Jump at a 3rd rounder for Ellis? Foolish boy.
cash
thankfully jerry jones admitted his mistake and got us the tuna, last year there were way to many injuries and in 2003 i think we over achieved by 2 games or so. your right though i think in another draft year if we get some good wr and a young franchse qb which i dont think the young 2 are, hope im wrong. we could be the class of the nfc again for a few years.
yah i wouldnt trade ellis for a third either 2nd maybe. ellis is more then a pass rusher, good against the run, and a good teammate. you dont dump team leaders, not smart.
just a thought here: j abraham is undoubtedly a great pass rusher, but why would he be a better fit in the 3-4? While everyone says that Ellis is undersized at 6′6″, 271 lbs., Mr. Abraham is listed at 6′4″, 256 lbs. Ellis is quite a bit bigger than John!
mike,
My point exactly. You don’t dump a player like Ellis for future draft picks. Period. Now if it were April, and a team was offering a good deal for Ellis maybe another discusion, but not right before the season. Trading him for Abraham is a whole nother topic.
I agree with you too on the WR debate. Owens leaves everything on the field, and as a player, a teammate you have to respect his effort game in and game out. What he did last year was great for sports, great for football, and great for the Philly fans. He sure showed me that he wants to win.
rparr,
Abraham would play the OLB position.
bill parcells is on IN THERE OWN WORDS on nfl network right now. i dont know if this is a rerun or not but its pretty funny and it gives another look of what parcells is all about
EricR,
I’m nuts? you’re the one here talking about making Ellis an OLB, now thats nuts. Believe son, I forgot more about football than you, have you actually played the game? Why dont you tell me what is the responsibilities of the DE’s in the 3-4 defense, do you know?
Here, I’ll explain it for you….
The 3-4 DEs tend to weigh around 290-310, and many are former 4-3 DT/DE “tweeners”. They must be able to play the run well. The 3-4 DE is responsible for the B and C gaps in the running game and lines up in the 5-technique position, so he is head-up on the OT. It’s tough for a 3-4 DE to pick up as many sacks as a 4-3 DE, because a 3-4 DE doesn’t have the freedom to go willy nilly upfield. He has to protect the LBs in order for the 3-4 to work.
Ellis value is as high as it’s going to be this year, he is 30 years old and from now on the value will fall.Teams are not going to give you a first or second round pick for him, period. Look at this last offseason, Indy couldn’t get that for their running back, James and he was a first round pick.Teams dont want to give up early draft picks anymore.
Do you know where the pass rush comes from in the 3-4 defense?
Here, let me help you out there too
3-4 OLBs are the playmakers of the D. They get the glory of picking up sacks on the QB. They must have strong pass rush skills and be able to drop into coverage. If the 3-4 OLBs are unable to consistently apply pressure on the QB, the D is very vulnerable in the passing game. They tend to weigh around 245-270, and many are former 4-3 DE/OLB “tweeners”. Many 4-3 DEs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the ability to play in space. The more agile 4-3 RDEs, such as the Jets’ John Abraham (6-4 256), are able to play both 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Many 4-3 OLBs are not suited to playing 3-4 OLB because they lack the pass rush skills and the ability to go toe-to-toe with an OT. Examples of solid 3-4 OLBs are the Patriots’ Willie McGinest (6-5 270) and the Steelers’ Joey Porter (6-2 248)
And when you listen to Parcells, just remember, it what he doesn’t say and what says between the lines, not what he does.I have no doubt that bill has no faith in Henson, what so ever, he doesn’t think he’s able to play at the NFL level and that Romo is the better QB,but he doesn’t like him as the backup to Bledsoe either.I think that a VET QB is going to be brought in.
I wonder if anyone would give a 3rd for Ellis. I think the Eagles would, KC would, and Green Bay would.
Derrick,
First of all, once again Parcells said TODAY that even with his 4 linemen set he is using the “3-4 principal”. He said it TODAY, and I uttered that explanation BEFORE the preseson started. When Ellis and Ware are outside 3 DL, Ellis is essentually playing OLB because Dallas is using the “3-4 principal”. Too hard to understand for you?… Again Ellis had his BEST year last season, that usually indicates the player is in his “prime”. In fact Ellis was in the top 8 players at disrupting pass plays. If you think that merrits a 3rd round choice you need the lesson sonny boy.
… and Derrick thank you so much for proving my point. If OLB get the sacks, and as you say, “It’s tough for a 3-4 DE to pick up as many sacks as a 4-3 DE”, then Parcells must be really stupid when HE said “(Ellis’s) sack numbers should increase this year”
More DE talk.
Ellis is not “essentially playing OLB” because we are using the 3-4 principal. What that means is, even though there is a four man front, Ellis is lined up directly over the tackle instead of outside. Greg Ellis is not, will not, and has never even had a wet dream about being an OLB in this NF of L.
Now, I see our starting DE’s of the future - which isn’t too far away - being Canty, Spears, and Ware (occasionally).
Shouldn’t we get something for Ellis while we can? We don’t want to find ourselves in Darren Howard position.
You tell me Mr Teacher:
If there are 5 players on the defensive line and the team is playing the “3-4 principal”, what are the respocibilities of the 2 outside players? OLB or DE? … Tell me please. I need to learn.
No need for sarcasm!
There are not five players on the D line, there are four. You may have noticed Ware “cheating up” to the line in that formation giving the appearance of 5 players (just watch old footage of LT). But Ware could easily drop back into coverage. In that formation, you also see the 2 remaining LB’s cheating sideways.
It’s the same principal with Roy Williams. Is he considered a linebacker on a safety blitz because he’s only 5 yards off the line of scrimmage?
A problem with us having Abraham that we may not have thought of is this: Both he and Ware are best suited to playing the weak side. With both of them here, who would get moved to the strong side? And what if prima donna Abraham didn’t want to move? That would be a really expensive platoon system at WOLB my friends. Not to mention a large locker room headache.
Alright…Troy, Michael and Rayfield will be up for Canton this year. No way the bums on the committee put in all 3! I think Troy will be the only one in this year.
Also…I’m wondering why we didn’t put Rogers on IR.
Big Jim,
Sorry I wasn’t talking to you. Derrick.
I do understand what you are saying. What you are eaplaining is a LB shift from the 4-3 defense. Parcells did actually have 5 players on the line, on a few plays 6 players were lined up on the line. Also, on a 4-3 LB shift formation, both DEs are outside the shoulder of the OTs and the OLB is even split further out. Parcells said himself that the Boys were playing with the “3-4 principal” .. now I am not going to sit here and say Ellis is a LB. THAT would be foolish, but ON SOME PLAYS his responcibilities are that of an OLB. The Cowboys are obviously vulnerable at times in this set and have to blitz well and disguise well .. from what I saw the other night Seatle’s offensive line looked confused, as LBs and Ss came free into the offensive back field. .. In a very comparable blitz, the ILB came to the line in between the DE and NT, and Beriault blitz that gap. If you wouldn’t call the ILB a DT, then the same principal applies to Ellis. Sure there is no doubt Ellis will rush the passer the majority of the time from this set, and it really doesn’t matter what you call him (OLB or DE), but instead of lining back and walking up, he is setting up at the line.
Derrick,
“Believe son, I forgot more about football than you”
Wouldn’t that mean EricR knows more than you?
So, five months ago, this team had virtually no DEs besides Greg Ellis, who is coming off a solid, near Pro Bowl year. Canty, Ratliff, Johnson and Spears are rookies and Spears is hurt. Coleman, Ogbogu, Carson, Coleman, et al… are a shade below journeymen in the NFL. Of this wholly unproven group, you guys think Ellis is the guy to leave and only because he’s a bit more of a 4-3 end than a 3-4 end or OLB? You’d do this - at the beginning of the season - to just nab a 2nd rd pick or probably a low 3rd? Numerically, what would Ellis’ absence equate to? An extra 30 yds of rushing per game and probably an extra 3 completed passes per game? Less .43 sacks per game? Probably the difference between the 14th ranked D and the 23rd? Thereabouts?
Why not go whole hog and deal Glover and Ellis? I’m serious. The rationale for dealing Glover is stronger than dealing Ellis. You could get significantly more for Glover. If Ellis is out of place in the 3-4, then Glover is to a greater degree. If Ellis is old, then Glover is older. Glover is a more coveted ball player, you could get more. If you have ultimate confidence in rookie OLBs and DEs in a new league and new scheme, then you should have exponential confidence in big strong young DTs to just simply occupy Gs and Cs.
There’s just something simple here… veteran experience is to be coveted, playmakers need to be on the field, don’t fall in love with fun schemes at the expense of sense. Capable and potential aren’t equitable. Capable is better.
Also, on the play when Ware stripped the ball in the pocket, did Ellis lead the LT inside away from th eplay? Was that a good play on Ellis’ part, or was it just a standard stunt called by Zimmer, that the LG should be quick enough to nullify? I don’t know. I do know Ellis went inside and the LT followed leaving Ware able to zoom around the LG.
Agreed, all DE’s drop into coverage at some point, some DT’s too.
I’ve been thinking though, if we are going to run both odd and even fronts, we are basically going to rotate 8 guys. Canty, Glover, Furguson, Spears in front of Abraham, Dat, Burnett, Ware supplemented by K Thor, Bradie James, and K Coleman, looks much better to me than having Ellis - and I really like Ellis.
James, good point on the weak/ strong side situation. I would guess Abraham would move to strong being the more experienced player.
Of course it’s all hypothetical anyway, but I bet the Jets would do the deal.
micheal,
Rogers is on IR. He was cut, cleared waivers and is put on IR until he is able to pass a physical after the operation to his knee and shoulder. Jerry will work out an injury settlement and when he passes a physical, he’ll be cut. Thats how it works.
We’ll see if their is a cowboy bias this year.All three aren’t getting in. Rayfield for sure will get in, finally. He’s way over due.
Maybe troy
Joey, agree with your points as well. Could you imagine being JJ and have this discussion mean $50 mil to you? That’s where it really gets fun!
EricR. Derrick.
Can we put some sort of a cap on this Ellis OLB/DE thing? How about this - the first time Ellis Defends/misses/knocks down/intercepts a pass more than 6 yards up from the line of scrimmage then we all send smiley faces to EricR. ONLY IF HE ISN’T IN ZONE BLITZ COVERAGE. If not then Derrick you get sincere written kudos from EricR.
I would like to hear different stuff. Let’s talk about NT. We only have One with experience in a 3/4 and he hasn’t practised since the beg of August. What the hell do we do about that………
Alanatdot,
Thats one position I’m really worried about since we changed to the 3-4 and really have no viable backup at that position that can play alot of downs. Ferguson is a really big part of the 3-4 defense. I think we are going to have to draft another nose tackle next year, either Wright or Ngatu if there to back up and learn the position to spell and eventually take over for ferguson.
AlanTdot,
NT? Did you see Glover play the other day. Does anyone watch the games? Or do fans just shoot from the hip here? Glover looked like Pro Bowler. .. A Pro Bowl NT!!
Joey,
Gosh thank you for you! Excellent points!
Allright y’all want something new.
Pats just released Safety Antwaun Edwards. Are we interested?
EricR.
Saw the game.
My point is that where will that rotation go if we go back to playing Glover 90% of the defensive snaps? R-o-t-a-t-i-o-n.
and if Glover goes down, We are left with career journeyman Leo Carson, and a guy who’s claim to fame is that he shares a nickname with an all time great.
No Alan you said we had one with expierence, meaning Ferguson, “the injured guy” you were referring to. Glover was a Pro Bowl NT in New Orleans, and looked awesome the other night. So what are you talking about?
Derrick,
I think the Cowboys will be drafting a little furter away from those guys, we are looking at Watson maybe even Harris? But Harris seems like a stretch in a 3/4.
Joey,
On the ware strip and recovery, ware was lined up standing outside of Ellis, on the snap, Ellis didn’t take rush inside rush on Jones, Seattle ran a stunt on the Line where the Guard pulled to block Ware, to little success, and they never ran that play again.
I’m not looking to go out and see what you can get for Glover or Ellis, and in fact as far as schemes go, I’d wish we would stay with the 4-3 as with the players we now have, I think we are better suited to play the 4-3 than the 3-4. But if we are staying in the 3-4 and isn’t Glover in the final year of his contract, why not trade him if someone makes an offer since he wont be back next year anyway, and I think the same with Ellis, I dont think he’ll be back next year either.. I dont think this team will make the playoffs because it will take atleast half the year for the players to get the scheme down to know what they are suppose to do.
AlanTdot,
Do you think Carson going to make the team, I figured he would be odd man out on the line.
I’m was looking at Ellis,Glover,Canty,Coleman,Ratliff,ferguson,Spears making the team on the line.Johnson and Van hoy on practice squad
EricR.
Glover was an NT in NO? So Johnson beside him was what… the DE? So he averaged 10 sacks per year in those five years as a NT? Okay. Sure. Whatever you say.
Glover does not have significant experiance playing NT. Ferguson does. That is not to say Glover won’t excel at the position, he is the best D lineman the Cowboys have. But his DT Tendancies are something that even he needs to work on. We want Glover around for a long time so having him work at NT for too long may lead to Injury probs a la Haley. WHo will back him up? What if Ferguson will be in and out all year and never really gets to his top playing ability?
Big Jim,
I can’t see us being able to afford giving Abraham enough moola to satisfy him. I don’t want to see him here, as vicious as the lineup would be. IMO he is a selfish pussy. About Antwaun Edwards, hmmm, can we afford the guy? Figure BP would probably like him, being that he’s coming from little Bill.
Derrick,
I assume you are refferring to Ngata of Oregon. He would be a GREAT draft choice, but we have to keep in mind that he is a junior this year. He may not declare early.
Derrick,
Who else would add depth at the NT position if not Carson? ratliff? I haven’t heard much about him. Spears? But that creates a prob of depth in a different area. Fergusons’ ankle better come around because that rotation is gonna be important for a team whos’ LB’s are learning on the job in a 3/4.
James,
Yeah,Ngatu of Oregan, didn’t realise he was only a junior, loved to have that monster at nose tackle anchoring the line for ten years.Hope he has a good year, great size ,power and he can move for a big man, although he had a knee injury.
AlanTdot,
I dont know what Bills going to do if Ferguson misses alot of time, hope he get healthy and stays that way,otherwise we may have to play more 4-3
Love this Headine
Tagliabue: Panthers unaware of players’ steroid usage.
Yeah.
They used the Sergent Shultz response from hogans hero’s
I SEE NOTHING, I HEAR NOTHING,NOTHING….repeat
They were unaware were they. Now that’s a very good joke.
Alan,
Glover was a Pro Bowl NT for the Saints. Yes. Yes and Yes. He was.
Joey2Zs,
Exactly so. Ellis is worth much more to us than we could ever get for him in any trade for draft picks. Teams rarely relinquish high draft picks for anybody. A third-round pick would hardly recompense us for the loss. I don’t think a second-round pick (if we could get that) would either.
EricR,
Whenever Ellis (or Ware or anyone else) drops his hand to the ground, he is considered a defensive lineman for that play. In fact, if any player comes up to the line of scrimmage and puts his hand on the ground, he is considered a lineman for that play. That’s why they call it a 3-man, 4-man, 5-man, or even a 6-man formation. If, and only if, Ellis begins a play in a two-point stance, could he ever be considered a linebacker. When any lineman gets up at the start of the play and drops into coverage, it is part of a zone blitz, a staple of any modern 3-4 defense. That does not make him a linebacker, any more than it did LAST YEAR, when Ellis occasionally did just that.
Alan,
Parcells knows that, too, citing his nose tackle-playing days in New Orleans and Oakland.
“It’s not like he hasn’t done it,” Parcells barked. “I think he was a Pro Bowler down there in New Orleans.”
…. but hey, what do I know.
Guys, guys, guys…..
You’re desperate to trade this for that, and this other for that… Aren’t you guys seeing the big picture?
Big picture explanation: Bill Parcells doesn’t want a 3-4 Defense. He wants to have a Defense that can respond well to what he faces on the field. Is that so hard to understand? The change to the 3-4 has more to do with the chance of finding those big speedsters to roam the edges as OLB’s than those coveted 4-3 Ends. But Parcells also knows (Well, I can bet a vacation for everyone in this blog to Mexico that he knows) that with Ellis and Glover he can also put a 4-3 to better respond to what’s being displayed on the other side if the 3-4 doesn’t work. Or even a 5-2! Just like we saw on Monday. And what the Hell! Even the 2-5 the Pats dispayed in the Super Bowl, though we would be real short on LB’s…
So, please, stop talking about trading this or that, because that would remove some of that flexibility this team has earned, which BTW, I think is the one Parcells wants, in the end.
OK here I go I will do my best to explain this. If you shift the 4 man defensive line over to the right, and the LB corps to the left, with the LOLB walking up to the line, you do have the spacing of a 3-4 defense. You play with the “3-4 principals”, as Parcells said today, and the spacing of the 3-4, but it is not a 3-4? I never suggested that Ellis play man to man against a RB or a TE in coverage, THAT would be silly, but I suggested that Ellis will have the OLB roll in a 3-4 defense in zone blitz coverages. A limited roll to take up snaps from the OLBs. Had on the ground, up in the air, touching his toes, when Ellis is outside the OT opposite Ware with 3 DL between them, and Dallas is zone blitzing … they are in a 3-4 defense.