Wonderlic Not Wonderful to Vince Young — So What?
Posted: February 28, 2006 @ 12:30 am
What’s in a number?
Perhaps millions of dollars. Perhaps nothing.
The press is working itself into a lather over Vince Young’s supposedly low IQ. Word leaked Sunday that the Texas sensation scored a woeful six on the 12-minute, 50 question Wonderlic Personnel Exam administered at the draft combine. See sample questions here.
Next came word that his initial test was misgraded and that he scored a 16 on a second test.
While personnel chiefs and media types tie their minds into knots trying to interpret Vince’s grades, we should know that Wonderlic scores are not accurate predictors of future performance.
Dan Marino scored a 14 on his Wonderlic. It didn’t keep him from the Hall of Fame. Conversely, Rick Mirer scored a 31. His intelligence didn’t help his on-field performance.
What’s more, low scores have not stopped NFL teams from drafting a player high. Jeff George scored a 10 on his Wonderlic and was still taken first overall because his workouts were so phenomenal.
The Wonderlic is a general standardized test. It is given to applicants for business positions, goverment jobs and schools. Its supporters will likely say that the Wonderlic shows a players’ innate capacity to master a thick NFL playbook. Perhaps. But football is about more than memorizing formations. It draws on other types of intelligence beyond the verbal variety. Performance on the field relies on the mesh of logical reads and rapid cognitive decisions, of the type described by author Malcolm Gladwell in this ESPN interview. Young was so effective in his college career because he was able to operate on the border of instinct, without ever slipping into chaos.
All the hullaballoo makes me wonder if the Wonderlic is the defective player here and not Vince Young. Look over this chart of past QB scores and you’ll see very little correlation between test scores and quarterbacking skill. Perhaps what the NFL needs is a better test, one that grades snap decisions, rather than deliberate, logical ones.
Ask Drew Henson. The Cowboys backup scored a 42 on his test. As one poster so aptly put it, “all it got him was a working vacation in NFL Europe.”
Wonderlic Scores for Cowboys QBs Past and Present:
Drew Bledsoe — 36 (average)
Tony Romo — 30
Drew Henson — 42
Vinnie Testaverde — 18
Quincy Carter — 30
Troy Aikman — 29
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This is much ado about nothing, IMO. The only intelligence Vince Young needs is when to run it into the endzone on 4th down to win the National Title game. Every game except one I saw him in the last two years he found a way to win. I’ll never forget that comeback against OSU last season. He’s a winner.
He could be the next Akili Smith, or he could be the next Steve Young. I’d give the edge to the latter. We won’t know for a few years anyway, but if he bombs in the NFL I doubt it will have anything to do with this test. I think the biggest determiner of his success will be to work in an offensive system that can use his phenomenal talent in the right ways instead of trying to change him to fit their system. If Mack Brown can do this, I am sure an NFL coaching staff can find a way.
In one manner, you are correct, Rafael. Intelligence means little if it’s not backed up by talent.
However, I proffer that given two equals, the smarter QB will prosper. I don’t want to get into all the number analysis, but it shows to be quite telling.
Relative idiots with amazing talent usually struggle and the successful ones usually run simpler offenses and depend heavily on their talent.
Brooks, Couch, Grbac, Jeff George, Blake, etc. are all examples of physical marvels that could never quite “get it”.
Culpepper, McNabb, Vinny, and McNair are examples of athletes that overcame their intelligence gap, but I truly believe that it has been the impedement to the phenomenal, HOF careers their talent could have been.
Vick and Marino really fit into the above group, but their talent could not be denied. However, again, it did make the difference in being able to lead the teams to greatness.
But there are few cases (none ?) where genius was able to overcome a rag arm. Although Montana & Young might fit, both were pretty good athletes as well.
Oh, and Gladwell hit the nail on the head for the real reason for success…hard work (”desire and competitiveness”).
That’s what made Aikman and Bradshaw so great…along with cannon arms.
But intelligence does matter, a lot. Would you rather have Steve Young or Mike Vick?
I don’t know if it’s Vick’s intelligence, Fighter as I see a lack of application — he’s got so much physical skill he can live off it and isn’t grinding as much to improve his reads, etc.
I’m just saying you can’t go by the chart and say this guy will be good and this one won’t.
Vince Young has improved every year - a lot. The improvement from 2004 to 2005 was immense. So I think he’s got the dedication. We’ll see if that score (which seems fluky to me anyway) holds him back.
Any word on the CBA yet ?
Did they move the FA start back ?
I heard last night they are real close but no other mention since.
If anyone hears anything please post asap.
Thanks>
Just askiing, but if Young was white do you think the media would have made such a big deal? Something subliminal there? And, for Young I would make a case that intelligence in the form of making reads and quick decisions is going to make him a dud in the NFL, because guess what-you can’t just tuck the ball away and run every time you don’t see what you want down the field! these types of QB’s are great in college, but it’s a whole different world in the NFL-and don’t mention the “scramblers” like Staubach, Tarkenton, Steve Young to disprove that-they are the exception. For each guy like that there are dozens who never made it.
if the test means nothing why do they administer it?
is there a one-to-one correlation, i.e. every high score guarantees great performance? no.
have there been some exceptions to the rule, i.e. mentally limited players who did very well? yes.
have there been some smart players who were busts? yes.
but does the test mean something for a QB with a lot of question marks hanging over his ability to make the jump to the next level? absolutely.
VY may make all the Horn fans happy at the next level, and he has already made all of UT’s opponents next season happy by leaving early, but the NFL is a different animal than the college game. having a great arm, great feet, the abilty to throw deep and read defenses are all pretty much essential. Vince has one of those, and a lot of winners’ heart. that is going to get him some big money and a chance in the NFL. can you ask for more?
top 7 players on my draft board:
Brodrick Bunkley, Vernon Davis, Chad Jackson, Tamba Hali, Manny Lawson, Michael Huff, Charles Spencer.
buckeyemark,
I think the test is worthless. I’m not saying *a* test shouldn’t be administered, but I do think THIS one does not give the NFL what it needs.
That’s all I’m saying. It’s like the SAT. For decades, it was the be all and end all for college admissions. Now, big states are abandoning it (California being a prime example) because it’s no longer considered a reliable predictor of future performance.
I think the NFL is in the same place the SAT was fifteen years ago. The Wonderlic is the best tool they have, but I doubt it’s the most effective one.
I think the NFL is also where MLB was 15 to 20 years ago, relying on outdated ways of measuring performance. Baseball has made it’s jump forward. The NFL, I predict, is about to make its leap, and replacing the Wonderlic will be part of that advance.
C Knight,
You’re overvaluing Combine workout warriors. That’s a dangerous gambit.
Raf,
I’d agree with much of what you say. The Combine, with its hand timing of 40 yard dashes, needs some real updating. Indeed, someone needs to be asking what relation flat 40 times have to do with football ability.
but worthless? be honest: if he made a 6 or the now reported 16 it doesn’t matter what test he is given, the results won’t change much. VY isn’t Harvard material and never will be. that needs to be factored in to his evaluation for draft day. is it a deal breaker? probably not. is it a factor? absolutely.
I believe Parcells calls them :
Morning Glories !
These are players who look great at practice in the morning, out performing most others. But when it comes to playing they are not effective in game situations. Some great receivers in the past have been slow by many standards. Speed means nothing if you cannot cut quickly or hit a block or catch the ball. These workouts are to see if who you already have an eye on is in good physical shape. You already know who are your top prospects are & your not going to change that because someone show speed !
Raf,
I don’t agree with your take on this story at all. You look at all the guys that are listed as having bad scores, but good careers, and all of those guys are old. Not one has taken the test in the last 15 years, when the combine, tests and everything outside of college games has started to matter to scouts. If you listen to an interview with Marino or George you know that they are intelligent guys. Do you get that same feeling with VY? I sure don’t.
I really want to know what’s up with the first score, though. I mean, how was it graded wrong? It’s a pretty simple thing to do. First we heard that it would be regraded. Then, the next thing you know, he’s retaken the test and got a 16. Granted, 16 is still not good, but why wasn’t the first one regraded. Why haven’t we heard of all the other players who supposedly had theirs graded wrong, too? I tend to thing that the grading error was a smaller error than we are being led to believe; maybe just a couple of answers or so. That would explain why the first test isn’t being regraded. Either way, it sounds like some NFL GMs are putting alot of credence on that first test score.
Also, I’ve had the feeling for a long time that alot of teams have been looking for a reason to shy away from VY. If you watch him, he doesn’t look good as a QB, but he had the results. I have chalked it up to having great support at UT, D’s afraid of his athleticism, and his coaches not pushing him outside of himself. Anyway, his throwing motion is terrible, he hasn’t held up to big hits, and he’s never really been able to play under center. NFL guys can’t use those as reasons not to draft the guy, though, since he had such an amazing Rose Bowl and good career numbers. To me, this is the first thing that has come up that alot of these guys can use as an excuse.
Using College performance is also very misleading, especially for QBs.
The list of outstanding college QBs that were NFL busts is long and distinguished.
I wouldn’t touch VY with a ten foot pole.
BTW, Jeff George is an idiot. Every action and interview I’ve ever seen have demonstrated it. Marino has matured, but I’d still never consider him intelligent. He just had the best passing arm ever.
Larry,
I’m sure there are a few small-minded people out there that may fall under your question, but I’d hope that this is not being blown out of proportion do to race by most. I’m inclined to agree more with altercall and his assessment that some teams, media, etc were looking for a reason to discredit him because of his mechanics, always lining up in the shot gun, that sort of thing, not race.
Raf,
I’m not sure why you have “(average)” next to Bledsoe. Did you mean his average score for several tests or that 36 is an average score? If you meant 36 is an average score, I’d like to point out that 36 is actually well above average. Here’s a link to a good article discussing the Wonderlic:
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228.html
I do agree with you that the Wonderlic is pretty antiquated at this point, but until they have something better, the results should still be factored into a team’s decision. It shouldn’t be given nearly the weight it’s being given, but it should be considered. I can’t figure out why some sports psychologist out there hasn’t created a specific test for each sport by now.
Rafael Vela
Are you trying to say theyb would not be good draft picks.
If you are you are rong.
The Wonderlic is just another measurable, like 40 time, or bench press. While many decry reliance on any of those tests, it is undeniable that it is better to be smarter, faster, and/or stronger than the other guy. The problem, of course, is that there are dozens of factors that contribute to success or failure on the football field, not all of which have had tests devised to measure them.
In Young’s case, whether one thinks it wise or not, some teams will downgrade his ranking because of that test. So, while it might not affect his ultimate fate in the NFL, it could well cost him millions of dollars.
By the way, the Cowboys have always relied heavily on the intelligence factor, since the beginning of the franchise. Even today, the Cowboys have one of the higher average Wonderlic scores in the NFL.
I think altercall is right on target.
if you look at the NFL draft it is clear that nobody has a clue how to really evaluate talent and potential. every team gets some, but every team has famous busts. even a first rounder is no guarantee of anything. Mandarich, Ryan Leaf, and all that passed on Marino (and now Roethlisberger) prove that.
it’s extremely difficult to look at 20 year old kid and figure out what he’ll be like in 4 years (or even next year). add that to trying to determine what is between his ears, his attitude, work ethic, will the celebrity go to his head, and it’s about impossible to figure who is really going to be a star and who won’t.
that’s why I believe teams look for reasons NOT to draft. when someone says “Why didn’t we take that guy?” scouts and GM’s have to have something to say. “Did you see his forty time?” is always good. Doesn’t matter that flat 40 times have little to do with football and many great players have been 40 slow. “Did you see his Wonderlic score?” Doesn’t matter that some big time players are Wonderlic dumb. they just need something to cover their mistakes up.
at the Combine are all these great athletes. and that is the problem: they are ALL great. they can run and hit and pass. none of those guys looks bad - or they wouldn’t have been asked. what the teams are looking for is an edge, something that gives a player any little tangible something to give them a good reason to draft, or as I said, not draft.
Vince’s lame throwing motion has already provided a wonderful excuse for every NFL team that passes on him. his Wonderlic score now adds fuel to that fire. and don’t tell me it was graded wrong. do you really believe that when a big name athlete brings in that kind of score no one double checked it?
in the end, some team will take Vince and give him piles of cash to have a go at the NFL. then, and only then, will we know: bust or star.
his Wonderlic score won’t matter when the ball is snapped, will it? but his ability to read defenses and make the right throw will. until then, all we can do is wait and speculate.
Blitzkrieg,
Look at the link — 36 is the average of two tests he took;
Altercall — also, look at the link. It has most QBs drafted in the last 15 years;
CKnight — That’s not my point. I notice though that the first names on your list happen to be guys rated on the fringe or outside round one who had great workouts. It appears you’re moving them a good half round to round up based on 40 times or 225 reps. That’s a dangerous thing to do.
BuckeyeMark,
I think we’re quibbling over semantics. Of course intelligence is a factor. But two things:
a. I doubt Young made a six on that first test, and;
b. I don’t think the Wonderlic does a good job of predicting future performance, which is precisely why it is given. Hence, I do think *IT* is worthless. I’ll bet if the NFL looked hard enough, or commissioned some cognitive psychologists to design a better test, they would have a much better one ASAP.
What gets me is why they or some teams don’t, given the huge amounts of money they invest in player evaluations. Getting something better than the Wonderlic shouldn’t be that hard.
Rafael Vela
I actually liked all of these players except for Chad Jackson before the Combine. The combine just solidifies the fact that these would be good draft choices.
40 yard dash times DO matter for certain positions. Don’t kid yourself. Not all positions, but for certain ones they do. They don’t make someone a great football player (that is presumably why they were invited to the Combine in the FIRST place), but they do reveal a player’s raw speed, which is very important at DB, WR, RB, TE, and LB. Obviously teams would never draft a guy based on their 40 time, but they certainly would not draft a player as highly based off of it at those positions. Nobody wants slow players in the NFL. The dash is the purest way of finding this out. Not only does it reflect on their speed and athleticism, but it also shows if a player has not prepared himself for the workouts (ie - Maurice Clarett).
I have no doubt that Marcedes Lewis is going to drop this year because of his lackluster 40 time compared to some of the other TE’s. The speed of the game at the NFL level is so much faster than college that the scouts have to have some way of knowing if a player is not going to be able to handle it before they put them in that position. The NFL is based a lot on speed, especially in defensive secondaries. The dash times, along with cone drills, shuttles, and the rest of the workouts these guys go through all offer clues as to whether a player is going to have the speed, quickness, and athleticism to compete against NFL players.
CKnight,
Vernon Davis is right, Bunkley doesnt fit in with us, Spencer is a early 2nd round pick at best, Huff is right, Hali hasnt proven to us that he can play in a 3-4, Chad Jackson is the best reciever in the draft but thats not saying much, and I say hes a reach at 18, and Manny Lawson is right. I agree that they should all turn out to be good players, but not all of them fit in with our team if you are talking about a draft board at 18.
Rafael,
The Wonderlic is a basic IQ test. It gives a base range (not exact) of general IQ.
It does not judge “football” IQ, but then it isn’t meant to.
And you’re right, it is just semantics. IQ is one factor. Important for some positions, not for others.
One NFL personnel man was quoted that if the 6 were true, VY would still be drafted…but as a WR!
Raf,
Thanks for clarifying. I did click on the link, but received a Page not found error. I have since been able to click on it and check it out. Great link.
Raf,
Not sure it’s all semantics. Not sure they are even giving the Wonderlic to predict future performance. They are just trying to measure intelligence - something very very difficult to do as there are at least seven different kinds of intelligence (and some experts recognize even more “kinds” than that).
the test just said Vince isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer. most anybody who has heard him interviewed probably knew that. it really doesn’t matter if the test was Vince playing tic-tac-toe with a four year old and losing every time or trying to do the Jumble in the paper and failing miserably. whatever the test he is going to show that is not his best asset.
and that has to be factored into his “draf-ability” - especially since nobody really knows who to draft anyway!
and I completely agree: the whole NFL combine is nothing but a combination of the most outdated tests of skill ever assembled. millions of dollars are given away each year based on tests that mean very little, or measure the wrong thing. incredible. all the busts in the draft ought to be saying to someone “this isn’t working right. let’s do better.”
. I don’t care if they ask him to do the Jumble in the paper and he can’t. all the Wonderlic test said was “This guy isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.”
Raf,
can you add an “edit” function to messages? I just “SPIKED IT” and had a trailing sentence fragment at the end of my message get put through that I wish I could edit out — just didn’t see it before I sent the message.
this is a great board and lots of fun. ain’t it great to be a fan and get to second guess everyone? I won’t lose my job if I say “pass” on VY or “take him!”
I’ve never been a VY fan, and I honestly have no clue how he will fare in the NFL. Nor do I really care as long as he goes to a team the Cowboys won’t face very often (Titans, Texans, Jets).
I have noticed two things that I think he doesn’t get enough credit for:
1. He does have a strong arm. He threw the ball about 70 yards with accuracy at the All Star Skills competition. Mechanics aside, UT’s offense was not geared toward deep bombs, so unless you watch him throw in other competitions it is hard to know this. Favre has been known to sling quite a few sidearm passes in his day too. As long as it works…who cares? Bernie Kosar led the Cowboys to victory in the NFC Championship game with similar mechanics and a pair of lead feet.
2. Everytime I have doubted Vince Young he has proved me wrong. I slagged on his on this blog last September, for instance. I have doubted him ever since he got to UT. So have a lot of other people. He’s proved all his doubters wrong, including me. I’m not underestimating him anymore…not after how much better he played last season. There came a point where I just had to admit that he’s a damn good QB. He makes plays.
Henson made a 42? Must be a smart guy when it comes to standardized tests, but I don’t remember seeing any QBs having to figure out where a train going a certain speed will end up at a ceratin time on a football field - you just read defenses. Not sure where I could verify it, but I heard yesterday Earl Campbell got a 2 on the Wonderlic. I think we can all agree he turned out all right.
Lets not forget that Randal Williams ran a 4.04 40 time and we all know how that turned out.
Raf,
I did look at the link. In the last 10 years the only player that I saw that I would consider even close to a good QB that scored under a 20, which is kinda what I was thinking a QB needed to score, was Culpepper. Even he might not be a good QB, though. I tend to think he is a product of Randy Moss, though I will give him another year to prove me wrong on that.
I’m not saying a QB has to be smart, as 20 is not a great score, but I am saying that for a QB to be good they can’t be dumb. You have to be able to learn the plays. You have to be able to read defenses. You have to know what the other players are going to do in certain situations.
I have been very careful to not say anything about VYs intelect because everything that I have seen could have another explaination, but after these score, I mean a 16 being lauded by his camp, you have to say the kid is pretty far behind average. You combine that with the fact that UT had to slim down th playbook, the fact that they stopped trying to fix his throwing motion because he couldn’t pick up what they were telling hinm to do, and the way he talks and gives interviews. I just don’t think a dumb QB can succeed in the NFL. Like that NFL scout said, a 6 would mean WR territory.
To me all the measurements would pale if they put them all in full pads and had the O line guys try and block the D line guys; if they had LB’s trying to cover RB’s. DB’s trying to cover WR’s. THAT way you would have a real basis for comparison. The drill that they had the O line guys one on one WITH EACH other was STUPID- what does a guard know about trying to GET to the QB- he is always trying to do the OPPOSITE. McFlabb only got like a 20 or so. Culpepper scored about the same as Young. So what does it really mean? Look at those that scored high- how many of them made it?
Just want to throw out a rumor/conspiracy theory that i heard. According to a college professor who regulary procters test to his students) it is believed that Vince Young is dyslexic and under a certain disablity act in the United States he is able to test under special conditions. What those conditions are i dont know. But the professor goes on to say that he believes Young was not given special provisions allowed to him so when it was brought to light the NFL tried to save face by saying the test was scored incorrectly and the second test he was administered was under special conditions. I tend to believe that Vince Young test taking failure can be directly linked to his uncle/manager/agent Major (unsure of last name).
burmafrd:
I believe they did exactly what you suggest last month in the Shrine, Hula, and Senior Bowls.
They did a wide variety of 5-on-5, 7-on-7, and of course full team drills all during Senior Bowl practices as well.
The Combine is meant to individually evaluate and interview players with special attention given to each one. That can’t be done in a team football environment like at the showcase bowls because of preparation time for the game. The Combine allows teams to put these players under the microscope and drill down on things like their medical histories and talk to them about any concerns they might have about them. The Combine also gives the underclassmen entering the draft a chance to interview with teams. It serves a purpose for players to close the deal (Vernon Davis situations) and for teams to narrow down their draft boards, but it is obviously not the only thing teams will look at.
the conversation is circling. everyone is saying, or has said:
1. the combine tests are not definitive, or always meaningful.
2. it is very hard to gauge talent and know who will and will not succeed in the NFL.
3. intelligence is important but is hard to measure, and not the only important piece of the QB puzzle.
4. dumb QB’s have succeeded in the past (insert your own Terry Bradshaw joke here).
5. Vince has overcome a lot and has won a lot of games.
that’s about it, isn’t it? GM’s will take all of this and decide how much weight to put on winning games, goofy throwing motions, low scores on tests and a lot more. some may pass. someone will try him - and I predict the call comes long before Jerry Jones ever has to worry about it!
in a couple of years this argument will be settled, and not till then. he may be the next Bradshaw. he may be the next Kordell Stewart. the good news for college teams playing Texas is that he most certainly won’t “be” on the field this next season!
Buckeye Mark:
You wouldn’t be referring to Ohio State with that ‘good news’ comment, would you?
lou c
Bunkley is a very strong man that can stop the run behind the line of scrimmage. He may be a bit undersized but his pure strength and athletic ability more than makes up for that.(44 bench press reps at combine makes me think he can hold up against the run)
Hali has a crazy motor and I think he would do better as an OLB in the 3-4 than a DE in the 4-3. But I would rather have Manny Lawson.
I agree that Spencer is a second rounder but he is a second rounder that we should draft.
My top players for the first round are.(for our system)
Vernon Davis
Brodrick Bunkley
Sterling — what ever gave you that idea? ;-)
but yes, when you lose nine players from your defense you might be a little happier to see a kid who threw his first collegiate pass the week before instead of the Rose Bowl MVP….
I don’t care what his Wonderlic score is: we don’t want to play him again!
altercall,
Fair enough. My general point is that there are a lot of guy who scored well on this that turned out to be poor NFL QBs. Intelligence is important, but not a guarantee.
I think there are two stories here bigger than Vince Young, and I’d rather focus on them:
1. Who smeared him? This information was leaked to make him look bad. I’m sure he’s not the only potential 1st rounder to score poorly, but he’s the highest profile guy to have his numbers leaked.
The organizations all have this data so they didn’t leak it, since it serves no purpose. But now, we and the talk show folks and the TV folks are going to hash out whether he’s stupid, capable, etc., etc. He may make all of us forget this. He has in the past, but it’s grossly unfair that he’s being slimed like this.
The NFL should fire some people over this.
2. What intrigues me about the Wonderlic is that it offers an opportunity for a smart organization to get an edge, the way Dallas did in the ’60s and ’70s. As Gil Brandt pointed out, all his computer did was allow Dallas to collate and analyze more data than anybody else. Everybody else got the same information, but ignored it because it was so voluminous. Once everybody else mastered computers, the game was over.
But if the Wonderlic is flawed and everybody is using it, an organization that develops its own better test AND KEEPS IT TO ITSELF will have a huge edge over everybody else, at least until the front office is raided and that new methodology filters out.
I’m not a psychologist, but I’ve studied cognitive psychology and think it’s the tool to build a better football player analyzing mousetrap.
Then again, if a science writer like Malcolm Gladwell can get big bucks speaking to businesses about cognition, maybe I should pair up with a researcher and try to develop a better one. Cause I’d love to knock on Jerry’s door and say “I’ve got a better test for football players, and if you hire me, I’ll keep it between us.”
SOMEBODY is going to do this soon and win a couple of Super Bowls with it.
Rafael:
It’s a matter of if, not when. Pro sports franchises in general are slow to these things because a lot of them have stubborn old timers wanting to keep their job security with outdated methods. Look at how long it took baseball statistics to evolve past AVG, RBI’s, HR’s, and OBP’s. It wasn’t until Billy Bean and ‘Moneyball’ until teams started changing the way they evaluated their personnel decisions.
More than cognitive psychology, I am interested in the idea of ’situational athletic matchups’ for football teams to use in staffing decisions. By that, I mean finding players that are hard to stop because they have a dimension to their game that other players don’t. Tweeners are a good example, but I think the next up and coming one will be at the DB position. Safeties with the size of small LB’s and the speed/coverage skills of CB’s. That can allow a team to run more unconventional defensive schemes that are hard to counter personnelwise.
I think the QB, RB, & TE positions are evolving in this way as well. Guys like Vince Young, Antoine Randle-El, Reggie NcNeal, Michael Vick, and Vernon Davis could well be on the vanguard of these situational tweeners.
Raf,
As for who smeared VY, I don’t think it was necessarily a smear. We have all 3 top QBs scored. You can’t keep a secret these days, not even in the White House.
If someone did leak this to hurt him I bet it was a team that’s going to pass on him, though I think it would have happened even if he scored a 40.
As for the test. I think the wonderlic has some value. If anything, I would like to see more psychological and/or intellectual tests given. I’m sure most orgs do give those tests individually, you just don’t hear about it. One test can’t measure everything, but it can be used with others to figure alot of stuff out. Most companies will give extensive tests to their employees, I don’t understand why the NFL wouldn’t do the same.
Sterling,
Precisely. And it’s because the scouting fraternities in all the major sports are so insular and resistant to change that innovators clean up.
Looking at Moneyball, look at how long its taken for really good and relatively inexpensive ideas to filter through that game.
The initial chapters were insane. Eugenics looks light years ahead of the methods the crusty old scouts were using. At one point, before he fired all his old timers, Beane had to remind them “we’re not selling jeans” because they refused to assess players with bad bodies on their skills. They had to pass an “eyeball test” in order to even get to step two.
I’ve seen the term “passing the eyeball test” in many of the old PFW draft books I’ve kept. I’m guessing Joel Buchsbaum picked that up talking to NFL scouts. When you recall Jerry’s “he looks good in the shower” comment about Troy that got him into so much trouble, once you get past snickeing at the easy joke you realize that he’s parroting this “eyeball test” nonsense.
Which tells me football is not nearly as advanced in player evaluation as baseball has become.
when you hear about a guy running a 4.04 forty it’ll make you stop snickering at the Wonderlic and start wondering at why they are still hand timing guy’s 40 times.
read this from the USOC:
http://www.olympic-usa.org/11611_32384.htm
Ben Johnson ran a 4.38 forty on a perfect track, with a tail wind, track spikes and a body full of anabolic steroids. then we get told some QB from Arkansas ran faster in shorts and sneakers on turf?
and NFL GM’s BELIEVED it and ratcheted him up the draft boards to the tune of millions of dollars?
apparently, Vince Young isn’t the only one with a low Wonderlic score…
The wonderlic test is B.S.! Dan Marino scored a 10. (Hall of Famer) Drew Henson scored a 42! We should be on our way to a 3 peat this year. McNabb 16, 12. Superbowl Q.B. Jeff George 10. Brian Griese 39. This test shows NO consistency to success in the NFL just like most of the drills in the combine. Performance on the field is the key and sometimes that doesn’t deteremine what a player will or will not pan out in the league. The combine itself is highly ovverrated !!!
Sterling,
Right on.
The combine is only part of the evaluation. … Drafting a player is not an exact science, but the more you get to see of a player, obviously the more you can learn about him. Take for example Michael Huff. At the combine he first runs an incredible 40, yes he passes the “eye ball test” (for a player of his position its a possitive), and is obviously articulate when he speaks. Impressive!! Now take his performance on the field, and that makes the odds of him succeeding in the NFL are extremely high. .. To me its the total package. .. Watching the combine for the first time, I saw why players refuse to perform drills. Their agents tell them, that it can only hurt their draft position. The thing that stuck out was the bad performances. Like receivers dropping balls or letting the ball hit their bodies. Just like all the drills are overrated (if that is the large portion of grading a player), so can the numbers they produce on the field. Look at Steve Spurrier’s QBs and WRs from Florida. They consistantly got drafted in the early rounds, yet few and far between became solid NFLers. The system inflated their numbers. .. Again its the total impression, the complete package. The more you can find out about a player, then the better idea you have of the odds of his success. .. Give me a guy like Huff were I can discount a bunch of reasons why he won’t succeed, and I’ll take him every day.
Eric R:
Good points, I agree totally. I think Huff is the real thing, I wish there was some way to put him in our secondary with Roy & Co. I think Huff will go above Hawk because of he has so much upside and can play everywhere in the secondary. Guys like him don’t come along too often.
I also agree about Spurrier’s system inflating numbers on guys. Very few of those QB’s and WR’s did much in the NFL. The same goes for a lot of Nebraska and Colorado running backs who were total studs in college and never did much in the NFL. Lawrence Phillips, Eric Bienemy, and Rashan Salaam come to mind.
Huff can play both ways, but say a team drafts him to play FS? I know hes thinking right now “I just want to be drafted”, but would be really want to be drafted and get paid FS money or get drafted to play CB and get paid CB money? He seems like a real good kid, but when it comes down to that much money his agent may change his mind. I could see the Lions taking Huff to play CB, and S if necessary.
lou c:
He should be making closer to CB money if he goes in the top 10 as he’s projected to. I’m sure he’ll get a handsome chunk of change up-front because of that. Whoever drafts him is not legally obligated to determine his playing position on the team until after camp anyway, so they’ll give him top 10 DB money and I’m sure it will work out.
He seems like a classy and intelligent young man. I doubt he’d act like Pac-Man Jones did last year, holding out and causing problems over the money.
Theres a pretty good article on Henson on ESPN.com if anyone is interested.
Looks like Jason Allan’s hip is well. regarding the wonderlic test, what ever happened to the validity of a college degree, I mean you would have to score higher than a six to fill out UT’s enrollment application.
TM
says a lot about how hard it is to get into Texas when you can play football, doesn’t it?