New Contract Should Mean More of the Same Old Same Old
Posted: May 21, 2008 @ 9:29 am
Marion Barber’s new deal means the Cowboys can maintain the status quo. I believe Barber will get more playing time, based on his ‘07 breakout and his Pro Bowl invite.
That said, why should the Cowboys make a radical change in the way they use Barber? They’ve just made a huge investment in him. The strongest argument against paying Barber big money is his “blood and guts” running style, as SI Senior writer Paul Zimmerman terms it. Barber does not eschew contact. In fact, he seeks it out.
For this reason, it’s easy to see him going the way of Larry Brown, Earl Campbell, Eddie George and other power backs whose bodies wore down under NFL punishment.
Pardoxically, the best way for Dallas to protect and maximize its investment is to not go overboard and suddenly use him as a “feature back” in the Emmitt Smith style -giving him 80 to 90% of the running backs touches. What Barber can’t suddenly do is get selfish, demanding such a workload. He’s got his money. The focus now should be all about winning.
Dallas also invested a first round pick in a complement for him. Felix Jones looks like he could be an upgrade over his predecessor Jones. One source said he was drafted to be a “matchup headache” for defenses. He’s got value. By giving Jones his share, OC Jason Garrett will ensure that Barber gives his team — and himself — the greatest value for the full length of the deal.
In other words, don’t expect too much to change.
Comments
148 Responses to “New Contract Should Mean More of the Same Old Same Old”
1st
More Same Old Same Old isn’t so bad. Last year Dallas slammed oppenents in the 4th qtr. I expect Dallas to get even better this year.
When you have a good thing going why change?
As the saying goes if it ain’t broken don’t fix it.
Now why the O line and Barber came up small in the second half of the playoff game is one big mystery.
Conventional wisdom says running like we did in the first half should have worn down the giants D. But they got stronger and we got weaker. Maybe they subsituited enough for them to stay fresh and our O line got worn down. I wonder. Bottom line is that we played that game different then we had the games of the season and that by itself was asking for trouble.
This year the smart thing to do is go with what worked so well last year which was use the pass in the first half to set up the run in the second half. Its what worked in the 90s and Garret will probably do it again. But with Choice and Felix we have new weapons to try out and why not in the first half give them most of the carries? Then pound with MB in the second half.
As a continuation, a whole lot of smart NFL people and former players like Emmitt all say the same thing: MB cannot last long getting a lot of carries with the way he runs.
When 25 people tell you you are drunk its time to borrow a quarter and lay down in the gutter.
burmafrd,
In the playoff game against the Giants the Oline was extremely tired, especially Flo. He almost went down but kept playing through but getting beat. I don’t know if it was lack of conditioning or what, heck it was the playoffs they should have been in their best shape. Barber was tired for sure. He never had started a game and they used him in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd effectively but wore him out in the process. JJones did nothing to contribute so they had to use Barber the way they did, thus Barber was ineffective in the 4th qtr.
MBIII will last longer if he learns how to deflect, jiggle and move more instead of take on defenders. He will also last longer if he is used like he has always been used, a 3rd and 4th qtr difference maker.
JimVance, thanks for some well thought out responses. (Hey-someone who makes points, instead of calling people idiots!)
I was thinking out loud a little last night, as this all came out of nowhere so fast.
It’s only a problem for me if down the road we lose another player because of having so much $$ tied up. Looking ahead, Barber would have been the LAST of the guys to be tied up-I would have done Hamlin or Canty first.
If, as you, and Raf above, are saying Barber is not going to get significantly more carries, why pay him 5-6 Mill. a year? That’s a Load of money for a guy who’s not going to carry the Load
Alright, this is my theory about why the O-Line didn’t look too good in the last half of that playoff game.
With my theory and a dollar, you still won’t be able to get a cup of coffee at Starbuck’s, but here goes.
Pass blocking requires less energy than drive blocking (run blocking) for the O-Line and just the opposite for the D-line.
Pass blocking is a technique that uses the ‘bend but don’t break’idea. You let your guy advance, but just keep him out of an area. The QB drops back into that protective pocket. The energy expended by the O-lineman is more deflective, and almost judo-like in that it uses the defensive guys energy against himself, carrying him past the QB. The defensive line while rushing are putting everything they have into getting back there to the QB. Cumulatively, it’s like running wind sprints with a 300+ pound guy holding on to you. The more your D-line has to rush the QB, the more worn down they will be as time goes on.
Conversely, when the O-line drive blocks, the O-Lineman have to use all of THEIR strength to try to move the D-linemen from a certain spot. The D-lineman only have to hold their position for a second, waiting for that runner to pop into the hole, then slip the block and tackle the guy.
Oversimplified to an extreme, I know.
Usually, in the 1st half, the Cowboys O-line was pass blocking, using up far less energy in that segment of the game than their counterparts across the line. So, when the 2nd half is underway, visualize the Cowboys O-line with 3/4s of a tank of gas and the D-line around 1/4 tank of gas. This is typically when the ‘Boys would start to run at the D-line and overpower them because the D had spent their energy pass rushing.
Fast forward to the playoff game- Our guys burned up their fuel on the running game in the 1st half, while the Gints tanks remained at a higher level. Add in some some smart substituting by the Gints DC, some lucky plays by the Gints O and the Cowboys are forced to play catch up…while the Giants D-linemen are just fresher. We all know the rest of the story.
I don’t think this strategy of running Barber for 100 yards in the first half is an indication of Cowboys Offensive strategy to come…I think it was trying to compensate for an injured TO and a crippled Terry Glenn.
Burma-
Do you need me to loan you a quarter?
jk
Nice analysis, Jim.
About Barber. Is his physical running style as deleterious as was Earl Campbell’s and Eddie George’s? Most of the time, it is MBIII seeking and dishing out the punishment. It seems that he is going to last longer doing the pounding, than if he was being pounded. I’d love to see a montage of all of his runs last year, and see how much punishment he really took. He is definitely a violent runner, but I seem him killing the other guys, not vice versa.
BTW, I love it when he punches the defender in the face. Too bad the NFL outlawed that.
Newtons’ third law says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Barber is getting punished big time, too.
There is a show on discovery i think called sports science where they actually tested those things. I believe the runner did absorb less impact when he was instigating contact. someone who cares more could probably do a search or find the segment on you tube.We are now positioned perfectly for our run. Go Cowboys! The deals are done and cannot be undone i for one am pumped . These two guys are and will be integral to our future success and stability.
Last thread I brought up how I thought the owners were clearly the greedy ones in labor negotiations and some individuals bashed me stating that I had no idea about basic cap economics. their case was that small market teams could not afford the salary cap. well i found a little basic economics to reinforce my point.
From: http://football.calsci.com/SalaryCap.html
“About 2/3 of the NFL’s money comes from the TV deal. The players get about 2/3 of team revenue.” Actually the players get 6% less than that but who is counting.
“So, more or less, the TV contract goes to pay the players. The money from the TV contract is share and share alike - the Redskins, Cowboys, Bills, and Packers get identical checks.”
So according to this the Cap is more than covered by what each team gets in TV money. There are also lots of other sources of revenue which theoretically go to owners alone. Jersey sales, ticket sales, other events at the stadium, and much more. This points to Jerry’s argument regarding marketing your team.
So basically what we can take from this is that even with a 6% cushion owners do not think that the profits they get from everything beside TV is not enough. And basically Jerry’s argument is, if you can not make money using that 6% capital and all other sources of revenue, maybe you are a bad owner.
Well, Newton’s Laws only apply in a Platonic world.
ym, at least one without pads i guess.
you are correct sir to think that all those collisions will eventually take their toll on mb. think about what each collision exerts. these guys are usually colliding at pretty good speed. that means alot of force gets exerted on both sides. it’s like each time you fall down it takes a toll on your body. you might not see it right then but you will eventually. that’s what helps make arthritis worse. your body pays the price eventually.
How many touches was Julius getting last year? 10-15?
How many touches was Marion getting last year? 15-20?
I guess Marion will start and Felix will come in on third downs for a change of pace.
Will both backs ever see time on the field together?
Will choice be used to run out the clock if we are way ahead or unless Marion is hurt?
The back field seems to be influx to me…
Don’t expect too much to change? So with Julius gone, does that mean Felix is going to start with MB III playing the second half? I know they passed more in the first half last year and let MB III wear the defenses out in the second half, but I’d rather see MB III get the start with an occasionally breather from Felix. Felix so far is unproven as an NFL runner and I haven’t a clue on whether he can block.
Some thoughts on MBIII:
1) People keep talking about how much contact he absorbs, but it’s the *end* of his runs that are violent, not the beginning. MBIII breaks to the 2nd level where JJones didn’t because MBIII has the ability to break arm tackles and stop-and-go in tight space. And at the end of his runs, he’s either getting caught from behind or dragged down by the pads as he stiff arms. He takes *less* punishment than the avg. back, IMO.
2. Eddie George and Earl Cambell burned out at 28 because of their mileage. It’s called the “rule of 370″ by FootballOutsiders.com…it applies to Larry Johnson and Sean Alexander as well. Now true, you usually have to be big to get that many carries in the first place, as a smaller back (Cadillac Williams) will break down earlier under a similar workload. MBIII is 25. He has low mileage due to his duty sharing at with Maroney and Julius. He’ll be good for the next 3-4 years, which is the length of the “real” contract anyway.
3. There’s no evidence the Cowboys plan on using MBIII as a 350+ carry guy. It’s a 2 back league now, and the Cowboys’ draft shows they understand that It’s not unreasonable to give MBIII 270-300 carries rather than 204.
This must be the most cerebral blog I read. For God’s sake, we’re talking about sports science, on the verge of diving into physics. I wonder what our collective IQ would be, compared to other NFL blogs? hmmmmmm…
Buster, collectively we might make genious. My IQ is 25 by itself.
buster, this blog is full of the most intellectual people i have ever come across… they understand cap circumstances, the game in a whole when related to coverages and schemes, and all of newtons laws lol. our IG would be rediculous. whoda thunk???
haha, leave it to me to mis-spell “IQ”
I think JG is going to be smart about it and not only give Jones 10-15 carries a game, but I think Barber+Jones+Choice= a constant pounding at the defense once they get tired. If Choice is the same type of runner as Barber then why not use them all? In other words, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Pass in the first half to wear down the D, and come the second half you have a fresher Barber and a all around threat in Jones to catch play 3rd and 4th quarter smash mouth. Bring in Choice occassionally when you really want to cross up the D because they think he is coming in to pound like Barber, but word is he has great hands and can catch out of the backfield.
MYSTERY SOLVED
Why were the Cowboys so flat in the last half of the playoff lost?
During the regular season, counting all 16 games, MBIII ran the ball 203 times. Of those 203 carries, only 83 of them were in the 1st half of the games. That’s 41%.
In the last half of the 16 games, he ran the ball 120 times, or 59% of his total carries.
However, in the playoff loss to the Giants, it was exactly the opposite. MBIII carried the ball 27 times in that game, 16 in the 1st half and 11 in the 2nd half. That equals 59% in the 1st half and only 41% in the last half.
He was the one tired!
WHAT DIDN’T WORK:
Counting all 17 games (16 regular season and 1 playoff game); only 6 times did MBIII carry the ball more in the 1st half than in the 2nd half; and of those 6 games, 4 of them were losses and one of them we only won by 1 point (vrs. DET)
WHAT DID WORK:
The winning offensive strategy in 2007 was to run J.Jones and let Romo pass the majority of plays in the 1st half, then follow that up with MBIII running the heck out of the ball in the 2nd half.
In all four losses (NE, PHI, WAS, and the playoff loss to the GIA) we got away from that winning plan.
MY CONCERN:
J.Garrett may try to run MBIII for the majority of runs in 2008 and spell him with Felix once in a while. MBIII will not be very effective in the 2nd half of games doing this - it has already been proven in four losses last year.
WHAT I’D LIKE TO SEE
In 2008 I’d like to see a lot of 1st half passes by Romo, and a combination of runs from MBIII, F.Jones, and Choice. Then in the 2nd half, dominate with the brusing running style of the “Barbarian.” I believe this will win games!
Nice analysis, Bishop
The offensive line tired in the fourth quarter of the last game because J. Jones gave them nothing and because there were only (1) big run by M. Barber that only lead to a field goal. The lack of the big run resulted in too many consecutive run plays, a couple first down passes would have impacted the game. That is why i put most of the pressure on the coaches, specificly Jason Garrett. He is the most important person to this teams success in 2k8.
Didn’t I essentially say the same thing…just not as in depth with the four losses and all the % work. But anyway we all know the same thing…Less Barber in the 1st half…shove Barber down their throats till they gag on his stiff arms in the second half.
I have never understood why a rotation at OL is never a consideration. I would love to see some 2nd and 3rd qtr McQ/Free/Martin assuming they can play. Just sayin.
I have often thought about that as well. Maybe it is a rhythm thing. But what about rotating the OL quarterly with the exception of the center or put your best pass blocking line in the 1st half and then your best run blocking line in the second half. Just like they do in hockey with line rotations.
raf, any word on the OTAs? The only guy who shouldn’t be there today would probably be hamlin . im just wondering.
“Buster, collectively we might make genious”
My IQ is untestible.
“I have never understood why a rotation at OL is never a consideration”
Continuity
cwby4lf:
You responded the question. What have you seen when an OLineman has to replaced due to injury and another guy gets in? The new guy and the guys around him usually struggle a bit because they have to get into a rhythm, not only to beat the guy(s) in front of them but also to follow the tune of the rest of the Offense.
Run blocking can be a job that requires up to 7 guys in the line, each with a responsability.
Pass blocking also needs a lot of things:
- They’ve got to recognize blitzers.
- Depending on the alignment of the Defense they need to know who’s going to receive a double team.
- With mobile QBs they also get to open lanes for the
QB to escape pressure or they help him get out of the pocket.
They also have to be aware of the snap.
Ir’s though…
This is true, but you also need to recognize that this law by itself has it’s limitations, I’ll write an example:
What happens if an armored car crashes into a VW Scarab? The armored will absorb the force of the impact MUCH better than the scarab.
In football it’s the same, if Barber stiff arms someone high (head, shoulder) he’s going to absorb the impact much better because the defender would loose balance and a big part of the inertia. If someone hits him high, the same thing will happen, he’s a RB, he’s supposed to take those hits and trains to absorb them. Hits aimed to the legs are the tricky part, especially when we all know that the knees can only bend in one direction… But every player in the field knows this and they’re all running the same risk.
There’s another reason why the o line doesn’t sub in and out… if you were good enough to start, you’d start. If you’re not, then why on earth would you go in a game? If strahan can beat Flozell, think he can beat the putz with fresh legs sitting on the bench?
Would swapping out the center be a good idea, ever?
In the playoff loss to the Giants, the Cowboys knew coming into the game that TO and Glenn were going to play injured. They knew they would be only effective part of the time. They knew from the 2nd Giants game that Colombo needed help to block Strahan and they planned to do this with Witten. They knew that Fasano was not an option on Strahan because he was not an effective blocker and he had a shoulder injury that needed surgery after the season. They had to use Witten as a blocker because FB Anderson had been lost for the season and Hoyte was a poor blocker after suffering a neck injury that hindered him all season. They knew that losing Witten as a pass receiving threat plus the injuries to TO and Glenn would severly hamper their options. So they planned to run more. This worked effectively for awhile, but Flozell had his leg rolled in the 3rd quarter and was only OK after that. Gurode had missed the last two games of the season with a knee injury and they did not anticipate how bad of a game he would play. His shotgun snaps were late and off target. His blitz recognition was poor as well. Couple all the injuries with the number of penalties (including the non-penalty called for intentional grounding that the NFL apologized for a couple of days after the game), the poor play of Crayton, and the weak play of the special teams and you have a recipe for a loss. Injuries cost Dallas that game. They all came on the offensive side of the ball. The defense played just OK, as it had all year.
Just saw some numbers on Barber’s deal from Adam JT, his cap number (salary + bonuses) in the first 2 years won’t be over 2.5Ms, in his 3rd year it’s going to jump up to nearly $10Ms. Yeah, 2010 the uncapped season.
If the owners reach an agreement on a new CBA that deal can be easily ironed to make it possible.
hamlin isnt there, probably because he didnt get his contract,
Roy Williams isnt there because he had “prior arrangements”
at OTAs, that is
ym- I think you’re on the right track with Newton, and one of his laws of motion,inertia, force or something…but I don’t think the interpretation of..’for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction’ is fully correct.
Now, I’m no physicist..(however I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once) but I think if you look at MB3 as he lowers his shoulder into a DB. That’s the action…the equal and OPPOSITE reaction is the DB blowing a snot bubble out of his nose as he goes down backwards, it’s not that MB3 absorbs the same energy as the DB.
Every RB is going to take some punishment on every play..that’s just the game. But I still hold to my thesis that MB3 is dishing out more than he receives.
I believe if you watch his tapes, you will see that he picks his shots and adjusts accordingly. For example, if he sees the tackler is a bigger guy, Barber will cover up, lower his center of gravity, and try to take a glancing hit if possible or if not, try to get under the bigger guy and leverage him.
If he sees the tackler is a smaller DB, he unloads on them..and I believe he intimidates a lot of them.
I know Barber isn’t Walter Payton, but the way he picks his shots, reminds of how Payton would do it. Payton had a pretty long career with a pretty bad line, and Sweetness would also deliver a blow to a tackler.
I can’t explain the physics of it but the guy who delivers the blow, transfers his kinetic energy into the body of the guy who takes the hit. Ballistics experts will tell you that it’s the kinetic energy transfer of a projectile that provides the ’stopping power’ of a bullet.
I’m over my head on this law of physics, kinetic energy transferance subject but I can boil it down to it’s most basic elements…when I played football and I hit guys…it felt good. When I got hit…I wanted to cry.
“What happens if an armored car crashes into a VW Scarab? The armored will absorb the force of the impact MUCH better than the scarab.”
Forget Newton, this is a conservation of momentum issue. Bounce a pingpong ball of a bowling ball they try the opposite.
A 220 LB Barber running fullspeed into a wall (planted LB) will cause a significant force applied to both the LB and Barber. The more times he does this, the more wear and tear he will face.
Anybody remember the Nigerian Nightmare - unstoppable for about two/three years and then gone.
Barber needs a rotation.
“… pingpong ball of a bowling ball they try the opposite.”
I’m turning this into an English assignment.
Point is a big dude running fast will smash a little dude. Two big dudes running fast will smash each other.
so who is suggesting MB wont get a rotation and will get 400+ touches a season?
Yes, I remeber Christian Okoye…He was also used as a complement back with Paul Palmer. Both drafted by the Chiefs in 1987, Palmer as the first round choice and Okoye was drafted in the second.
However, the Chiefs usually put both on the field with Okoye as a FB and Palmer as the RB…Okoye lasted six years in the league and Palmer only four.
Palmer played for the Cowboys during his last season in 1989.
Correction: Palmer only played three seasons (1987-1989).
NFL network is reporting that Tony Romo restructured his contract so Barber and Newman could be resigned. No more detail than that, but way to take one for the team Romo! Gotta love the kid
What hurts Barber is when he slams his head on the turf like he did against the Giants, twice.
What do you bet Romo is making a whole lot of money in 2010.
Becho, thanks for the link in post 13. It’s a nice write up.
I think you are greatly over simplifying when you suggest that teams can make an acceptable profit because the TV contract covers player payroll. The teams have a number of other expenses such as staff, coaches, scouts, IT, accounting, legal, insurance, facility and marketing. For low market teams the combination of these expenses and payroll equals 80%-90% or revenue, for high value teams it closer to 40%. That changes the math in capitalization decisions. To argue that 10%-20% gross margins is good enough is not considering the capital layout.
The Cowboys new stadium cost 1.1 Billion dollars. For another team to spend that kind of capital it must be reasonable to expect that their 1.1 billion dollars will generate as much or more money invested in the stock market, oil etc. Just for some perspective, 1.1 billion dollars is an investment that is nearly equal to the payroll of the last 48 Cowboy rosters combined (apx. 1.2 Billion)
Investment capital is like water; it follows the rules of economic physics and flows to the best return for the least risk. The NFL owner’s argument is that under the now voiding CBA agreement, teams that did not already have a significant amount of non-shared revenue could not afford to fund player payroll to the allowed maximums allowed and still generate rate of return that compares favorably with other uses of the capital. Under the now debunk agreement the situation for the Bills, Cardinals Etc was such that it was a comparatively bad use of capital to try and improve team revenue
The reason there is a 6% gap between the Cap and payroll is many teams are no longer manipulating the cap so they can spend more on payroll, but instead working the numbers so they do not hit minimum payroll numbers. Jones and a few others owners will drive a truck through the 2010 CAP exemption while other owners will keep spending down. In a few years this trend will generate tiers of teams based upon economics and it will show up in the standings, which will lower fans interest in the game and hurts over hurt the league.
I am not sure about the best answer to the problem, but the question is what economic model will facilitate continued investment into the teams and league by both large and small market that will sign a new CBA.
Take two on the last paragraph
I am not sure about the best answer to the problem, but the question is what economic model will facilitate continued investment into both large and small market teams, yet still be palatable enough for the players to sign a new CBA before 2011.
I vote that all salary cap and legal questions from now on get deflected to Trey. Who seconds?
Trey
Well said…
So Felix Jones will make a little more money over his rookie contract than Julius Jones did with his. Barber makes a significant amount more. Does anyone else have a major problem with how much money is going into our backfield? The major consensus is that Barber should stay in a similar role from last year. Does this mean not starting? If so, we have one of the highest paid running backs in the league playing a backup role. I guess if we win the super bowl then this is fine, but otherwise it’s wasted payroll.
If Barber starts, and he probably will, then we have yet another 1st round pick not starting for the next 5 years. Felix will play a big role for the team but it frustrates me that he won’t be a feature back for a long time.
Trey,
Something tells me your economic argument will fall on deaf ears. Too many people want to label other “greedy” because they want to make a profit. Simply emotion over intellect. Football is just another example. I don’t blame the owners for trying to keep as much as they can or the players for trying to make as much as they can. I don’t think keeping 6% of TV revenues as being remotely excessive.
slide,
No.
Dallas got Pro Bowl production last year from a 4th round pick. He platooned with 2nd round pick.
In other words, Dallas’ outlay at RB was meager.
When I say things will stay the same, I mean Barber will remain in a platoon. He’ll get a higher percentage of the carries, but he’s not going to get all of them.
What’ the big deal? Barber is a Pro Bowler. He’s going to get paid like one. Do you want to overwork him simply so he can “earn his money?”
Jones will work off his rookie contract.
Slide, that’s my concern. On the one hand, Rafael and others are saying, “Don’t worry, the Cowboys will protect their investment. Nothing will change, he’ll share the load.” But if he’s just a ’share the load’ guy, why pay so much?
Except, I think the ace iin the hole here is that the CBA is canceled after 2 years. So, basically, the whole Cap is out the window right now. Just worry about 2008 and 2009, because after that , who knows? And with TOwens and Flozell getting older, I think JJ is just going for it-how sweet would it be to open the new stadium with a ceremony hanging a big championship Flag up?
cont.
Look at New Orleans, Slide. Reggie Bush has been playing the Felix Jones role there, and getting #2 overall pay for it.
Why are you frustrated? Are you signing the checks?
Trey, I don’t think it has to be complicated. Both sides have to give, and not kill this Golden Goose they’ve got by being overly greedy.
1) The owners give the players that magical 60% number so they save face.
2) The players give the owners a salary schedule like the NBA for draft picks. This has got to stop. Especially in the NFL, no way should unproven guys be paid huge contracts. It’s at the point where you’re better off NOT having a top 5 pick.
If they can balance those concerns out, they should be OK.
If either side gets too greedy, Lockout Time!
RAF, reading your post above…..no don’t overwork him now. Just don’t pay hm that much in the first place! He’s a “Pro Bowler” like Roy Williams is one. He didn’t really earn it (in my opinion).
But, again, I think the lesson here is, the old rules are out the window. JJ doesn’t care. He wants to win now. Screw the Cap.
Raf, is that a good argument? Do you like what New Orl. is getting from Bush for that money?
This idea that because Michael Turner or Reggie Bush gets this or that seems silly to me. They’re bad deals, in my opinion. Do we want to emulate them?
Understand, though, I’m really talking only hypothetically now, because I’m gathering that the CBA is basically out the window now…So JJ can pay anyone whatever he wants as far as I’m concerned!!
Along with the new knowledge that Romo AND Leonard Davis restructured for more room anyways….Good for them.
I’m a long time reader, but I post most of my thoughts on another forum so I’ve never created an account until now.
And just an FYI, Romo and Bigg weren’t making any sacrifices by restructuring; they’re now getting some of their money today instead of in salary later.
the only alternative to not paying MB that kind of money would have been the let him walk.
dallas had already decided they were willing to pay turner money to MB, so they did it.
on that note,
good night.
As I pointed out in my post, the TV contract gives each club $87 million. Bechco, the cap was $116 million. The TV contract DOES NOT COVER THE CAP.
As regards MB. Guys who was tackling MB most of the time? It was NOT DBs. It was LBS and DLs who are a LOT bigger then he is most of the time. AND quite often there are several of them. So trying to claim that most of the time MB is dealing it instead of taking it is flat out wrong. And as was quoted, Newtons law pretty much blows that out of the water as well. When you are hit and slammed down to the turf or grass, that is a very significant impact.
And the ground does not care who is trying to deal out the punishment- it always wins.
I read somewhere that the MB3 / TNew deals had to be done by 3 pm yesterday to meet…what…some cap treatment. Any ideas what the Opt Out vs Old Cap implications were for these redone deals? Why the 3pm deadline?
Magic
When the Owners opted out, all contracts signed after 3:00 could only prorate the signing bonus out 5 years.
TNew 7 years
Barber 7 years
Trey - Dude, will you do my math homework?
Slide/Realist- When you think of a starter, it sounds like you are thinking of the days when Jimmy Brown carried the load, all game, all year. (10 games by the way). I know there are still featured backs around the league…who, I predict will have truncated careers because they will beaten down by the work load. I believe the game has changed and we’re going to see more of these 2 or 3 headed monsters at running back. If everyone isn’t doing it now, they will after the Cowboys running game tilts the world on it’s axis.
I think this situation is comparable to the days when players might be the defensive tackle, but also the place kicker, or the wide reciever and also the punter. When some team took that first bold move to make a roster spot for a specialist (placekicker, punter, long snapper) I’m sure there were people who felt like it was a terrific waste of money.
It’s become the norm.
I’m glad the Cowboys are on the front end of that wave. It’s been said before in this thread, but just imagine what it will be like to be a defense that has chased Romo and TO all game, your tongue’s hanging out, now you have a fresh Felix, Barbarian and T. Choice all running at you. I can’t wait.
Jon Kelley- welcome
Burma - Where did you get the data that MB3 was tackled mainly by DLs and LBs?…and…unless they score on a play, almost every RB will make contact with the ground.
I don’t really think the comparisons to Barber being like Eddie George is very good.
George was six foot three. He took alot of poundings to his legs. Same with Earl Campbell and why his career was so short.
Marion Barber is six foot. I know that might not seem like much but he has a different build then the other backs that keep on being compared to him.
I know he takes punishment, but as long as he is used in the same way every year, with maybe a few more carries tacked on, it should keep him fresh.
But I will say this, I ever see Marion taking that monster hit, it happens once in a while, but generally he’s being dragged to the ground.
I think Marion Barber’s contract was well worth the money for Dallas. When you look at the two back system, Barber may be a pioneer if you view his role in terms of an elite baseball closer. That is how Parcells saw him. When you view his role or value to Dallas, not the rest of the league, he is worth the money. Other teams would have gone after him for sure, but Dallas had a good thing going with him. Moreover, the money lined up to keep him in the end. Barber has done more than Micheal Turner, and he received a little more money than Turner.
Barber’s punishing running style eats up the clock and wears defenses down for good when you use him correctly. Barber is a good receiver, and he is a great blocker in the passing game. Also, he doesn’t put the ball on the ground. I don’t think teams like to see Barber going down hill on them in the fourth quarter. It’s just like left-handed hitters don’t want to face Mariano Rivera in the 8th or 9th inning of a tight game or when they are behind a run or two.
Here are Barber’s 2007 rushing numbers by quarter:
1st 34-148 4.4 YPC LG 16 1 TD (16% of his carries)
2nd 49-224 4.6 YPC LG 37 5 TD (24% of his carries)
3rd 42-201 4.8 YPC LG 23 1 TD (21% of his carries)
4th 79-402 5.1 YPC LG 54 3 TD (39% of his carries)
Marion Barber gets stronger as the game goes on when you use him right. If you keep him fresh, he is ‘the closer’ or ‘the Barbarian’. In the second half, he gets 60% of his carries, and he averages 4.98 YPC. You can bet Dallas knows this. Look for Felix Jones (the 22nd pick of the draft)to be the ‘Greg Maddux’ of this two-headed monster.
Felix Jones isn’t your caddie, daddy.
But, Marion Barber isn’t your ‘over-paid’ platoon RB.
They are both starting caliber running backs who will share the load and help one another be successful, like Rafael states. They can both be stars, and they are both wearing them.
Bishop West,
Good post. It made me think about the quarter splits on Barber’s carries. The Lakers were down by 20, so I looked them up.
Read or heard somewhere that since defenses are becoming lighter and faster overall in protecting against a pass-friendly league, offenses may begin to adjust by slamming these smaller defenses with a “heavier” running attack built around the punishing backs and big/strong OLs.
When the offense isn’t so centered around 3-Receiver sets but on a physical running game, a defense built to defend the pass should be more susceptible to such a strong running attack. What do you guys think about offenses around the league shifting to strength over speed to get an “edge” on these defenses now built to prevent the pass?
A balanced, versatile offense like that in Dallas should be able to emphasize either the run or the pass, depending on the opponent. I look forward to both Romo’s magic and the two-headed monster we’ll be unleashing on defenses next season. There’s good reason for Dallas fans to be excited about the draft and off-season contracts Jerry has completed.
…#70 continued…
Look at Barber’s 4th quarter rushing stats. He gets 39% of his carries in the fourth. 79-402-3TDs and 5.1 YPC. His long of 54 came in the fourth quarter.
You really have to view Barber as a complete football player or running back. You have to weigh the intangibles (plays with fire and his teammates feed off it, hard worker, plays hard and with elite effort, great teammate, model citizen off the field, ect..), his punishing running style, yards after contact, his receiving, his pass protection, his redzone value, and his goalline value.
In 2007, Barber’s combined rushing/Receiving stats were:
248 touches 1,257 yards 12 TDs 3 Fumbles 5.06 YPT
Furthermore, these numbers don’t tell the entire story about the tough goalline or redzone running. The stats don’t measure any of the intangibles that I listed above. Barber can make a three yard run on the goalline look like gold. His toughness is certainly needed inside the rugged NFC East. Note the three fumbles. I don’t think Barber fumbled at all in 2006.
You have to see the big picture with Marion Barber. His pass blocking will not show up on the stat sheet, but it protects a $67 million dollar investment.
Finally, his ability to finish teams off in the fourth quarter sets him apart from other running backs in a two back system. Who is better at it?
Jerry Jones says he trades top 20 lists (player rankings) with about 6 or 7 teams each year. He said today that the other teams rate Terence Newman either one or two each time.
I am excited about Mike Jenkins. I was tough on him due to his one known off the field incident, too tough. Getting him at number 25 may prove to be one of the biggest thefts in NFL draft history. You just don’t draft top corners like Jenkins at number 25, especially when they run a 4.38.
I heard James Hasty say he thought Jenkins would make the biggest impact of all the corners drafted in round one. He said that the Cardinals want to put 15 pounds on DRC, and he might struggle early. We’ll see.
I do think it is funny that the dumb Eagles poured all that money into Asante Samuel when they could have drafted Mike Jenkins at number 19. Jenkins reminds me of a bigger and faster version of Samuel. Jenkins closes on the football in a hurry when he is playing north and south, just like Samuel.
Scout
I think that Hasty was wrong. Leodis McKelvin should really have the most impact. I mean he’s going to be going against the #1 or #2 receivers of the Jets and Patriots, he’ll probably also return kicks and punts.
Zak,
Part of McKelvin’s impact will be watching him give up big TD passes on Sports center. He will have to carry a much heavier role then Jenkins will. Jenkins will be a third or fouth coner while McKelvin will be asked to play the role of the number one CB before he is ready.
That said, I think Leodis McKelvin is the better prospect.
Larry,
The golden egg goose is going in for surgery, and there is always a risk that it will not end up as well as everyone hopes. With an open year in 2010, the salary cap is dead unless the players agree to reinstate the cap in 2011.
The larger issues need to be worked out between the large and small cap owners. There never was agreement about the last CBA other then it needed to complete the deal on time so they could finalize the TV deals. The CBA negotiators put in two poison pills (clauses that hurt everyone) in the opt out clause so that no one would want to use it. The fact that the owners voted 32-0 to use it despite the negatives means there is real commitment to forcing meaningful change on the financial structure of the league.
Everyone will talk tough, but the league and players have three years to come up with options before this will come to a head. There are possible compromises that are better then baseball or basketballs deal, but the solution that funded NFL growth from 1992-2003 is no longer working. The league will get a new financial framework that will impact the game on and off the field. I doubt the final solution will leave the players with 60% of revenue and I also doubt the outcome will be a completely level playing field for teams. Most likely it will include some sort of salary tax instead of a cap.
Glad to see TNew and MB3 locked up. Nice job Jones’. We’ve got a whole lot of really good players locked up for the next 4-5 years. Happy days ahead.
Charb - thanks
I hope there is no TAX. Then the rich owners can just pay it. There has to be a cap or eventually you write off all the small market teams. And the NFL drops back down to 20 or so.
And for those thinking that DBs are the ones making most of the tackles on MB. Remember he does not get out in the open much. Look at the games- he is getting contact soon after he crosses the line- that means LBs at least, and usually DL will get a shot at him. And the gang tackling- well everyone gets in on that.Yes its better to be the hammer then the nail- but both of them are impacted. Why do you think so many other players- specifially RBs like Emmitt- have been saying that he is not likely to have a long career? You are saying everyone of them is WRONG?
I really enjoyed reading some of the posts on this thread about MBIII and our O-line blocking.
I think you can make a strong argument for using Barber more in the first half to get the lead, because his first half YPC numbers are very strong. And we all saw last year how early drives with Barber tended to fare better than drives with JJ in the backfield.
The Giants tended to use Brandon Jacobs early because early yards are tougher to get and he had the power to get them. Then their quick back would often pop some big runs against tired Ds.
But having 3 very high quality backs, as we do, I’m not sure it will matter that much when we use them. I expect MBIII, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice to hurt Ds whenever they are on the field. It’s pretty easy to get excited about all the possibilities.
The one area where I actually see more opportunity for improvement is in run blocking. And this is where having Hudson Houck back as our line coach could pay real dividends. He knows how to mold a massive line into a mauling run-blocking machine. And I think Garrett will use them that way enough so they won’t ever get winded in the 4th Quarter.
It’s comical to see debate about which “part” of the game to feature MB. I love the guy, but that just proves the point he is not elite in the true sense of the word. Is anyone in San Diego talking about which part of the game to use LT? We had to pay a premium to sign him because 1) there is no other experienced back on the roster and 2) there would have been a fan revolt if negotiations got ugly.
I say manage his carries throughout the game to the best benefit of the team. It worked well last year to pass more early and let him finish teams off late. Why change what worked so well?
Burmafrd,
It is going to be difficult to come up with a way to have all the teams on the identical competetive footing when the difference in franchise asset and earning power is so great.
A tax would be an imperfect solution, but it could be combined with other ideas such as an inbalance in draft picks that the small market teams extra draft picks for low market teams.
The one thing the players and the teams agree on is that the rookie pay system is broken. That will get a lot better in the next CBA. Extra draft picks for teams based on economics would be one way to off set an inequity in team payroll. It would give the “poor” teams access to more low cost football talent.
StillHatetheGiants,
RE: #83
I don’t think a debate in a comment thread focusing on MBIII speaks to the degree of “elite”. I think it is more a question about JG’s game planning and using our assets wisely.
When I think of today’s truly elite, I think of LT then a few up and comers like Adrian Peterson (Vikes version). I haven’t heard anyone lump MBIII in with the LTs - they’d be fools to do so.
MBIII has thrived in a 2-back system that was overweighted on passing plays in the first half of most games. Should we be expecting that to change? Probably depends on how fast Felix and Choice get some game, not how elite MBIII might be or not be.
Burma- “Why do you think so many other players- specifially RBs like Emmitt- have been saying that he is not likely to have a long career? You are saying everyone of them is WRONG?”
I did hear that Emmitt say he was concerned about MB3s violent running style and that he thought it could shorten his career. Emmitt is entitled to an opinion like everyone else, and being a HOF running back, I would give his opinion more weight than most. But it is still an opinion, and I’m not saying Emmitt’s opinion is wrong, but for all I know, he’s formulating his opinion by contrasting his own running style with MB3s style and thinking, “Man, I’d get killed if I did that!”
But to get back to your quote…”so many other players”… Emmitt is the only one I’ve heard mention that.
My final point on Barber, and then I’ll shut up…he is what he is. He’s not Bambi, he’s a bull. His idea of a finesse run is to have defenders bodies lined up neatly behind him on the field. That’s why I love the guy, and that’s why he’s so popular with friends and fans. A lot of guys are saying he’s not an elite back, he’s being over paid, he can’t carry the ball the whole game, etc.
I heard a quote from Barber, it was something to the effect of..”My Dad said I was lucky to get to play this game, and you never know when it will end with injuries and all, so play each and every play like it’s the last one you will ever play.”
He really does play it like that and you can see the difference. No holding back, balls to the wall. You (the collective you) can say that he’s not an elite player and that he will have a shortened career and therefore, don’t pay him as well.
I disagree, that’s the kind of guy that is elite, he’s leaving it all on the field, every single play. He’s inspirational to his team, do I dare say, ‘a leader’?
The Cowboys have a window of opportunity to get to the Super Bowl, and that window may only be open for a year or two until injury or free agency changes the landscape. Barber is a winner, now…pay the man gladly and go for the gold.
Now, I’ll finish by saying that I respect differing opinions on this subject…I just happen to like mine more.
I can see it now, late in the 4th quarter Cowboys up by three. Three minutes and change left, all we need is a first down because the Redskins only have one time out left. Cue the music “Enter Sandman” a huge ovation from the Texas Stadium crowd as MB3 runs on the field. Our “Closer” is in and this game is all but over. A new era has started in the NFL, the era of the Running Back closer.
We paid way to much for MB3. He’s not full time back. We got taken.
But don’t worry my fellow Cowboy faithful, I will be jumping off my couch when our Mariano Rivera hits the field.
Marion=Mariano
His name is no longer Marion, its Mariano.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/cowboys/stories/052208dnspocowdate.3bcef69.html
says here, jerry jones wants to put pacman in at WR some. that seems interesting.. a devin hester???
The people who don’t like this contract misunderstand two things:
1) The nature of NFL contracts. Most of the money is not guaranteed…and if you look at the cap figure numbers, it’s pretty clear this is a 3-4 year deal in intention, not a 7 year deal. Think Barber will be good for 3-4 years? Then it’s a good deal.
2) According to FootballOutsiders.com, on a per carry basis, Barber has been the 2nd most valuable back in football for 2 consecutive years. Now, some of that value is that he’s used in high leverage situations. The analogy to a baseball “closer” isn’t that apt, because closers pitch 70-80 innings a year…1/18th of the team’s innings. Barber will get a touch on about 1/6 of the team’s offensive plays…and that number is going to go up.
3) Saying Barber “isn’t LT or AP” doesn’t prove much. Is he Michael Turner? He’s getting paid only slightly more. Is he (when he gets more carries) Stephen Jackson? Or Ricky Williams in Miami when he was healthy and sober? I think so.
Jim Vance
TOny Dorsett, Emmitt Smith, Walt Garrison.
Those I can remember right now and there have been others. You can keep trying to say they don’t matter but your arguement keeps getting weaker.
Captaincomeback:
“We got taken.” How is it WE? Your ashamed to be a cowboys fan, you said it yourself. I have no respect for anything you ever say again on here.
In case anyone wants to sing along next year
Say your prayers little one
Dont forget, my son
To include everyone
Tuck you in, warm within
Keep you free from sin
Till the sandman he comes
Sleep with one eye open
Gripping your pillow tight
Exit light
Enter night
Take my hand
Off to never never land
Somethings wrong, shut the light
Heavy thoughts tonight
And they arent of snow white
Dreams of war, dreams of liars
Dreams of dragons fire
And of things that will bite
Sleep with one eye open
Gripping your pillow tight
Exit light
Enter night
Take my hand
Off to never never land
Now I lay me down to sleep
Pray the lord my soul to keep
If I die before I wake
Pray the lord my soul to take
Hush little baby, dont say a word
And never mind that noise you heard
Its just the beast under your bed,
In your closet, in your head
Exit light
Enter night
Grain of sand
Exit light
Enter night
Take my hand
Were off to never never land
Raf
The main question I meant to ask was “are we paying too much for a platoon backfield?” I see the point that if it works, who cares? But with Barber’s contract it basically means we don’t need Felix Jones. We need a Felix Jones-like player, but not the 1st rounder we have.
And you pointed out very clearly in threads leading up to the draft that those players should be found on day two. That’s the point I’m getting at. If we planned on extending Barber for reasonable money, why draft a complimentary RB with our first choice when he has no chance at starting for the next 3 years.
I’m not at all mad about this situation, I just see areas of it where it doesn’t make as much sense as I’d like it to.
I think we make too much of the RBs, they only gain as much as the blocking permits and the passing game keeps the safeties back. MBIII is no Earl Campbell and let’s just stop with that please! I dont like giving RBs big contracts, i think Jerry might be a softy, thinking its the “right thing to do”. Or maybe we are gearing up for a one and done SB run and we need a happy newman and barber. Thing is when people get paid they tend to not play hungry, ask our WR Patrick Crayton after he got his contract last year. We’ll see if MBIII is still a barbarian.
MBIII and the ’short career’ crowd. I’m sure Walter Payton was predicted to have a short career. WhooooooKnooooooooo?
sam-
I don’t think you can legitimately say Crayton didn’t play hungry, or hard, after he got his contract. He dropped one (1) ball, and the thought is that he didn’t play hard after he got his money? Or, he made a mistake on an improvised route in the 4th quarter? I don’t want to be a Crayton apologist, but come on.
Did Romo not play hungry after he got his money and made a bad throw or two in the playoff game? I get that a lot of guys get paid and shut down — the contract year player. I just don’t think you can dump on Crayton like that from one dropped pass.
On this short career issue: Jerry really never should have given Aikman a second contract. With all the hits he took in the first season, there is no way he could have had a decent career.
“This idea that because Michael Turner or Reggie Bush gets this or that seems silly to me. They’re bad deals, in my opinion. Do we want to emulate them?”
Whether you these deals or not, it doesn’t really matter. They establish the market. An owner can pay it or watch his player get snapped up by another that is willing to pay it.
The alternative is to low ball an unknown player. I would rather have a ProBowler than hope Jerry finds the next guy that could become a ProBowler.
“unless they score on a play, almost every RB will make contact with the ground.”
RBs wear out, the gound doesn’t.
“But having 3 very high quality backs, as we do”
We have one very high quality back and two high potential prospects. I hope we end up with three very high quality backs.
“says here, jerry jones wants to put pacman in at WR some”
I just hope the commish wants to put him in - anywhere.
“I’m not at all mad about this situation, I just see areas of it where it doesn’t make as much sense as I’d like it to.”
That’s exactly how I saw things prior to the draft. Maybe if Jerry could have had a RB complement in the second round trade down, it would have been better - dahhhhhhh. For whatever reason the draft didn’t work like that, I could be pissed and just wait to say I told you so or I could become a Felix Jones fan.
I’m happy Jerry landed Jenkins instead Manningham.
I hope Felix is the rookie of they year!
Jerry is doing one good thing that we can not dispute at this point…he is keeping the team together. MB3 and Newman are big parts of this team. They are two of the most visible players. At least he is not blowing things up and getting too creative. That was my real fear, that he would bring in free agents at the cost of having to loose homegrown players. Signing a FA WR may have meant that, but who knows anymore with the CBA thing. This is a good team lets give them a little time.
The biggest soon to be free agents previous to these signings were: TO, MB3, Newman, Ware, Canty, and Hamlin. Ware is probably the most valuable on that list, but I doubt he will not be resigned. Newman was next most important and he was signed. So out of TO, MB3, Canty, and Hamlin who is the most important. Any one of them could be. Depends on perspective. I guess the cowboys though MB3 was that guy.
The analogy as Marion Barber being used in a closer’s role, just like that Rivera makes perfect sense. Now, you can’t take it literally like Captain Comeback did. That is silly.
Barber, like Rivera, is being paid due to his ability to finish games in the second half. That is where his value truely lies. Will he get carries in the first half? Sure. Is he better when his stays fresh? Absolutely. Is he one of the most punishing runners in the game who doesn’t fumble? Yes. Is he best used in the second half when Romo has hung 30 on defenses already? The numbers say, yes.
For all you guys (not just on the blog) who say Dallas over paid him, it is exactly like a baseball closer.
Do you remember the 2004 Pittsburgh game at Dallas? Dallas couldn’t run the freaking ball late in the fourth quarter against a tough 34 defense. They punted and lost.
If Greg Maddux pitches 7 scoreless innings and the Braves’ bullpen can’t hold the lead, they run the risk of losing the game. You play to win the games.
Barber, just like Rivera, is lights out for the opposing defense in the late third and fourth quarters.
Rivera may not pitch many innings compared to a starting baseball pitcher, but ask any Yankees fan what his value is to the team. He saves games and puts them on ice.
Did Barber not do the exact same thing for Tony Romo last year?
I seem to remember Barber catching a key TD late in the Lions game last year. The guy has done nothing but make plays.
What good would it do to let Barber go for an unproven Choice when the Super Bowl could be on the line. Without Barber getting the rugged yards late in the game or making a key catch or block, would you see punts in tight games like the 2004 Steelers’ game?
Do you really want to risk it?
Baber was paid market value, and like Rafael, I think his role will stay about the same. He is the ‘closer’ for the Cowboys. The football version of Rivera. Who is better at Barber at closing games out?
Name one.
Go ask the Atlanta Braves how it feels not having a player like Rivera.
I see Barber as part of Jerry Jones’ over all picture of his investment in the team. What good is it to have a lead in the second half if you can’t pick up the tough yards in order to put the game on ice?
Finishing games off is Barber’s best value, and that is why he received the jack.
Oh and he’s pretty good at getting into the endzone too.
Good points scout; I find myself agreeing with as usual. For those still upset about how much Barber is making, look at it another way. Did anybody stop to think that maybe Barber had been underpaid the last two years? Who expected a fourth round complement back to produce as he has, yards when they count and touchdowns, lots of them.
I understand you pay players based on the future, and its not a ‘reward’ payment structure. But, realize that the last two years were real bargains, and maybe Jerry is now just having to pay what Barber’s production is worth, especially when compared to cost production for him in 06 & 07.
That last line should be “cost / production ratios for him in 06 & 07″.
I do not think the Cowboys would have paid Barber what they are if it were not for the change to the CBA. There was a reason the deal was done after the opt out option was taken by the owners.
The change to the CBA allowed the Cowboys to have their cake and eat it too. By putting 10 Million in the uncapped year, Barber’s contract has no more impact on the cap the the tender offer he already had.
I do not see how any fan can grip about this deal. The team get’s to keep a real talented player who will help us win without losing out on the other free agents or on the teams ability to change out Glenn for a free agent wide out.
I don’t know if Barber is overpaid or not, but I do know that when he gets on the field he adds an instant spark to the offense. I’m sure he’s going to start now, but I doubt that the rotation is going to be much different. He’ll probably line up in the back field at the start of the game and then he’ll also probably be in from almost any short distance down and down there in the redzone. I imagine that there is going to be quite a few times that Felix and Barber will be in t